The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

Leadership Reflections: Leading With Radical Responsibility as a Catalyst for Change with Gina Gardiner

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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What if the moments that break you could become the blueprint for how you lead? That’s the heartbeat of our conversation with Gina Gardiner—leader, author, broadcaster, and unapologetic catalyst for change—who turned a devastating ski accident and years of chronic pain into a living masterclass on resilient, human leadership.

We trace the arc from breaking gender barriers as a young deputy head, to running a high-performing school largely from a wheelchair, to building a global platform that champions empowerment and psychological safety. Gina shares the operating system she designed under pressure: define excellence together, make praise habitual, and treat people as the treasure of your organisation. The approach is crisp, compassionate, and deeply practical—built from assembly halls and classrooms, refined in boardrooms, and now delivered across airwaves and social channels via Genuinely You.

This conversation goes beyond tactics. We dig into the cost of over-responsibility, the discipline of protecting health, and the courage to confront injustice—whether that’s unfair systems at work or the quiet disregard for the “little people” who keep everything moving. Gina also opens up about her partnership with Olympian Fatima Whitbread, working to improve outcomes for young people in and leaving care, proving that leadership at its best builds communities, not just KPIs.

If you’re hungry for a people-first, performance-strong model that you can use tomorrow—clear standards, kinder feedback, braver conversations—this one will land. Leadership is how you show up, moment by moment. Subscribe, share with a leader who matters to you, and leave a review to tell us the one habit you’ll change after listening.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

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Thanks for listening!

Chris Grimes:

Welcome to another episode of the Good Listening to Show. Your life and time is with me, Chris Climbs. The storytelling show that features the clearing. Where all good questions come to get asked, and all good stories come to be told. And we're all my guests have two things in common. They're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors. A clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 54321. Some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, and a cake. Some it's all to play for. So yes, welcome to the Good Listening2 show. Life and Times with me, Chris Grimes. Are you sitting comfortably? Then we shall begin. Boom! So welcome, I'm Chris Grimes. Welcome to the Good Listening 2 show Stories of Distinction and Genius. Today is a very special leadership reflections episode, because I've got someone who's an extraordinary leader with lots of leadership reflections to reflect. This is Gina Gardiner, and she is a radical change catalyst, leadership advisor and speaker, two times international best-selling author, and very juicily, if that was not enough, she's also a syndicated radio host on Brushwood Media Network, which transmits mostly across the United States, but globally I gather. And I had the great privilege of guesting on Gina Gardiner and Friends this very morning. So as you said yourself, Gina, this morning, this is great. She's having a Chris Grimes day, but I'm having a Gina Gardner Day, and I it's a wonderful garden to be in. So you're very, very welcome. I think the Queen of Leadership is a mantle I'm gonna refer to you as being henceforward. So Gina Gardner, welcome to the Good Listening to show.

Gina Gardiner:

Thank you for joining me to the show, and also thank you for crowning me Queen of Leadership. That's a title that I'm gonna keep.

Chris Grimes:

Wonderful. We have Jill Tiny from Collaboration Global in Common 2. And so we're in a network where it's all about collaboration. And this is a reciprocal arrangement where I've been on your wonderful show. And it honestly is going to be such a delight and privilege. You blew so much happy smoke at what I'm trying to achieve through this storytelling structure, particularly the um legacy life reflection series strand, I'll talk about at the end. But I'm particularly excited to talk to you because of your reflections on leadership through your very wonderful career thus far. You certainly have a very interesting story to tell. So um let's get you on the open road. If someone doesn't have a frame of reference for you, what's your favourite way, Gina, of describing your own cut and thrust of what you do?

Gina Gardiner:

I think my one of my clients said it for me. There was two things, two clients. One who said that I have the capacity to see the potential in people even when they don't see it themselves. And another client said to me, you know, you're half hugger and you're half ass kicker.

Chris Grimes:

And I think that probably describes the Andrew's your websites, half half hug, half ass kick.com is where Gina Gardner comes in. I I think you we should both rush there now, which is fantastic. Although it was my idea first, obviously. So just talk us through your book empire as well, and also your link tree. At the very end, do look at Gina Gardner's link tree because you've got such an empire of leadership and different really wonderful things you're achieving in your cut and thrust.

Gina Gardiner:

Yeah, I mean I've got over 30 books that I've written, but probably the two how-to manuals in terms of leadership, which is Kickstart Your Career and How to Manage Your Staff More Effectively. And they were my first two books, and they really are the sort of things you can pick up if you've got a problem and you need to have a difficult conversation, or you want to chair a meeting, or you're trying to deal with young members of staff that you need to engage and induct. And then the other one, which is around my lessons for life, really, which is Thriving, Not Surviving, the five secret pathways of happiness, success, and fulfilment. And they're the principles I've learned to live by, and they're the ones that I would use around my clients. And although many of my clients are business clients, we are the common denominator we take ourselves into every moment of every day. And so the lessons for life are also lessons for leadership.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, and indeed you've got some profound lessons of life that I know we're going to get into. We've had an extraordinary, I have thoroughly enjoyed researching you, and it's been a really wonderful path and journey to get you to this point, to welcome you to the clearing of the Good Listening to show.

Gina Gardiner:

Thank you.

Chris Grimes:

So just to blow a bit of context, as you know, if you've not seen one of these shows before, where have you been? I've done about 275 of these monkeys now. But this is the show in which I invite movers, makers, shakers, mavericks, influencers, and also personal heroes into a clearing or serious happy place of my guests' choosing as they all come to share with us their stories of distinction and genius. And as I've already said, Gina Gardner's here, particularly with a cut and thrust of a leadership reflections. Let's get you on the open road. There's going to be a clearing, a tree, 54321, alchemy, gold, a couple of random squirrels, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, a golden baton, and a cake. Hurrah. Any questions before we start?

Gina Gardiner:

No, I'm all ready to go.

Chris Grimes:

And it's not a memory test, I'll curate you through it. It's a bit like doing a lovely slalom downhill slope and I'll pull you in through various gates of storytelling. How marvelous. So your clearing is your serious happy place. Where would you say Gina Gardener goes to get clutterfree, inspirational, and able to think?

Gina Gardiner:

It's my garden. I call my garden the window of my soul. And although it's not very big, it's very colourful, and I use it to de-stress, to fill my batteries. You'll find out from later in my story. Mobility has been an issue for me for many years. So whilst I love being out in nature, and under other circumstances, I might say by the sea or by water or up the mountain, for me the garden's always accessible. And even when I can't physically get outside, I'm sitting in my court in my garden room and I'm overlooking my courtyard. I've got an internal courtyard, it's full of colour. Or I can go into my front garden. And for me, being able to see the different forms, the different colours, the different textures, and I change those season by season by the planting that I do, although architecturally there's stuff there all the time. It's not about sitting in the garden for me. It's about getting my hands dirty. It's about being part of that nature. And when I do that, that's when I de-stress, but that's when also I feel the greatest connection to my inner wisdom and consciousness.

Chris Grimes:

And of all the names to have, Gina Gardener, you've thought that through. The fact your clearing is literally your garden and you are the gardener, is a fantastic clearing and totally opposite and appropriate.

Gina Gardiner:

Although the spelling is a little different. Yeah, I absolutely know where you're coming from. And anybody can find some small space, whether that's a window box or just looking at the clouds, whatever your physical situation, whatever your financial situation, a space outside where you can connect with nature is open to us all.

Chris Grimes:

And may I ask where it went wrong with the spelling? Not in your case, but in terms of your family history and Gardiner versus Gardiner.

Gina Gardiner:

I have no idea, actually. Um there is some talk that it, you know, it became was a derivative that people in many ways, lots of names are like this, where people couldn't spell, and and the person who was recording the spelling decided to be a little creative. But it is interesting. I'm often called gardener, but it's actually gardener. For me, it doesn't matter, other than if you want to get hold of me, it's easier to get the right spelling. Um but but being out in the garden, my mum was a great gardener. In fact, the only rows my mum and dad had were around when my dad got a pair of secateurs because he didn't know when to stop. And then we'd have a row about, you know, Peter, I had a wonderful cherry tree until you got at it. What have you done? As you know, three stumps stood up. But yeah, my garden.

Chris Grimes:

Perfect clearing. And I'm now going to arrive with a tree in your clearing. I don't know if you've got a tree in your garden. You said you described it as a courtyard, but I'm not sure if I'm picturing a tree there or not yet.

Gina Gardiner:

I've got a courtyard, I've also got a front garden, and yes, I've got a couple of trees in my front garden.

Chris Grimes:

And I'm assuming you're going to let me into your back garden and your courtyard is where I'm hoping to go with my tree. I'm going to shake your tree now to see which storytelling apples fall out. Huddly like these apples. And this is where you've been kind enough to have thought about, you've had five minutes to have thought about four things that have shaped you. Three things that inspire you, two things that never fail to grab your attention. When I get onto that, I'll talk about squirrels briefly. And then the one is a quirky or unusual fact about you, Gina Gardiner. We couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us. So reassuringly, as I described already, it's not a memory test, but um let's go back into shake the canopy of your tree as you see fit.

Gina Gardiner:

So the first one I would say is my upbringing. I had parents who had an incredible work ethic, and a father who, if you said that you were a bit fed up, a bit bored, didn't feel very well, his response to that is go and do something useful, ideally for somebody else. And whilst it's been an interesting principle to live by, in many ways, incredibly powerful and positive, but in another way, I took it to an art form and forgot all about health and looking after oneself. And so professionally it's been incredibly powerful and positive. At times, in terms of my health, perhaps not so good. But ultimately, I had parents who valued learning probably above pretty well anything else in terms of how you develop yourself. And that I've been a lifelong learner, and I'm very grateful. My parents were in very different ways inspirational. They were quite tough for us. I mean, I was brought up in a very different generation, but I think that's where I started to learn resilience, and certainly that's been a gift that's helped me throughout my lifetime, really.

Chris Grimes:

So no lying around feeling sorry for yourself. This is get up, contribute, carry on.

Gina Gardiner:

Definitely. We hear a lot about anxiety and depression these days, and I do not want to make light of it, but I know from my own situation and from other people that if you can take the attention off what's not working for you and go and do a random act of kindness, or you can go and help someone else. Whilst it's important you don't take it to an art form, there's nothing quite like engaging with other people and doing it in a way that you feel makes a positive difference to help you feel better about yourself.

Chris Grimes:

And very profound, rather than wallowing in self-pity, not that you ever were, but as an expression and an adage I really like it the difference in life between what you want and what you get is what you do. So it's very much the proactivity and the action towards that will bring about change or movement.

Gina Gardiner:

You know, I talk to people about it's not that we all have challenges in our life, and I've worked with people who've had the most profound challenges of abuse, you know, emotional, physical, sexual abuse, people who have been made redundant, lost somebody that they love, who have lost their business, who've been made bankrupt. I mean, I've dealt with other people as well, but you know, those sort of life-changing situations. And I talk to people about the fact it's not the challenge that's going to define you, it's what are you going to do with it? How are you going to look for the gift? And whilst at the moment that moment when life is really tricky, it's often hard to see the gift. What's interesting is when people then look back, having done the inner work, how they see that actually that the very thing that they found so profoundly difficult has shaped them in a way that they're then grateful for.

Chris Grimes:

And I hope we're going to get on to something much more specific about your own path. When I used an analogy earlier on about pulling you down a ski slope slalom race, not a race, but but through some gates of storytelling. I know that you've got an extraordinary story, which I don't doubt you're going to get on to about challenges to your own health, shall we say.

Gina Gardiner:

Yes. So that would be my first leaf that's fallen. And ultimately, I think we are all products of our upbringing that can be positive, negative, neutral, and a mixture of all three. But for me, because of what happened, I think that upbringing, that particular principle of get up and get on for me was a lifesaver. So the second one would I think be lots of things in between, but in terms of profound, I was a keen skier. I had been appointed to be a deputy head or principal of a large school very early. I was appointed to be the deputy. I was 28. And I was appointed to be the catalyst for change. In fact, when I went to look for the job, the head teachers turned around and said, We don't want you, we want a man. Very different times. We're talking about 1982 at this time. I'm not quite sure why, but I decided to apply anyway. I think I thought was good practice. And on the day of the interview, I was told, you realize that if there's a man that's your equal, he'll get the job. You've got to be better than anybody that's there, otherwise, it's not going to work. I got the job. Incidentally, the acting deputy, a woman, was told not to apply because he was going to appoint a man. So I was persona non gratis when I arrived. Youngest on the staff bar two, and literally appointed to bring in ideas and to move the school forward. It wasn't a bad school, but it was very, very old fashioned, and you can appreciate I was 28 at that time. I was the youngest bar two by a long way. Most of the staff were in their late 50s and 60s.

Chris Grimes:

And you described it as being old school, and of course, that defining attitude at the beginning, the first impression, was incredibly old school. And you know, hopefully 1982 was the last time that presented, but we both know that that's not the case.

Gina Gardiner:

No, uh unfortunately not. Now I was a keen skier at this time, and I used to ski two or three times a year. I'd rather ski than have a summer holiday. God knows why. I don't like the cold, I don't like heights, and I'm not very sporty, but I loved it. And in those days, it was very much the fashion to have skis as long as possible. So I had a new pair of skis for Christmas, and I I allowed the man in the shop to convince me that instead of the four or five centimetres longer that I had initially thought I would buy, he convinced me I needed an extra 10 centimetres. Went off skiing February half term, having spent the first six months of the school year planning strategically how we were going to move forward. And I went skiing with four friends, and with my previous skis, we were all very much on a par. But because I kept on wrapping those 10 centimetres round my neck, I was tail-end Charlie and I kept falling. And on the Thursday of a week's holiday, I had a really nasty fall, and I ripped my brand new ski suit from thigh to ankle, and my earring went through my ear, and I really shook myself up. So I said to my friends, I'm not going to ski with you tomorrow. I'm going to get my confidence back. And they said, Well, okay, we'll meet you for lunch. And when we met, they said, We found this fabulous six-kilometer run. Come and join us. And so I did. It was one of those amazingly beautiful days that you get in the mountains. It was February, late February. The sun was shining, the snow was glistening, it was just magnificent. And we went up on the uh the chairlift, and as we went up from the village, the village looked like a miniature village, and you could just hear the shh of people skiing past. And we got off and I followed them. And we'd been going perhaps about five minutes when we turned a corner and I was behind them catching up. And when I caught them up, it was pretty evident that we weren't where they thought they were supposed to be. So instead of it being a six-kilometer red run, it was a black diamond run. Now, those of you that don't ski, ski slopes go from green, that's for learning, blue, red, black. Black diamond is for idiots and foolhardy. There is no, there was no way back, and so we had to traverse this huge um mogul field. Now a mogul is where the snow has been eroded by the wind and the rain, and it's a lump. And some of these are like cobbles. These were six-foot monsters, and the only way to ski was to turn on the top of the mogul and slide down and then go along and then turn and do the same. And it was powder snow either side. So I skied the first third successfully. I was an experienced skier and I'd done plenty of black runs, but I hadn't done them anything like this before. And then I left it too late to turn and I had a nasty fall. And it took me about 20 minutes to retrieve my ski and then ski down to where the other four were sitting, each on a mogul, rather like an elf sitting on a mushroom. Took my skis off and we were talking. And I think where my mogul had been exposed to the sun for longer, I suddenly found myself to be falling. And there was nowhere to land because it was so steep, and because of these moguls, and the last thing I remember is a screen. That was me, and then everything went black. I came to, I have no idea how long it was, but I'd found in that rolling down and down and down, I'd found a somewhere flat enough for me to land. Eventually, my friends skied down to me. They wanted to call the blood wagon. I was just as insistent that they weren't to do that. And the one good thing about it is that with the two falls and the skiing, I was pretty much at the bottom of the slope and we were very close to the hotel. So they hoped me back to the hotel and I was in a bit of a state. But we travelled home the next day. Fortunately, in one way, we were travelling by coach, so I didn't have to do anything apart from get on the coach. And I arrived home and my mum took one look at me and dragged me off to AE. And they said I'd got a bad concussion and I trapped a nerve in my neck. It took me three weeks to get back to school, and at this time I was still wearing a surgical collar and I wasn't right. I was just doing school and coming home and going to bed. Five weeks later, we were due to take 150-some pupils on the borough ski trip, and I was the deputy leader. And I was told I could go because we had a medic with us. And so during the week I skied, but I got more and more like Quasimodo as the week went on. And on the Friday, which is our last day, it was a meddle day, it was foggy, it was cold. And when we got back to the hotel, I felt absolutely dreadful. And I said to my colleagues, I've got to go and lie on the bed. Went upstairs, and this was a cheap hotel. We were in bunk beds. God only knows how I got on the top bunk. But within about half an hour, I discovered that I was paralyzed down one side. The pupils were playing and talking in the corridor outside, and I didn't want to frighten them, so I waited. And I have to say, that wait, and I don't really know how long it was, was probably the longest few minutes in my life until someone came to check on me. At that point, all hell broke loose, and I was carted off to the local hospital and then to Geneva University Hospital. And I was there for just over a week, and I was eventually flown home. And by that time, I had I could walk, but I still had some problems. And it took me about three months to get back to school. And I got back to school at the by the end of May, beginning of June. I wasn't right, but I could come in, teach, go home, go to bed. And I was really pleased to get to the summer holidays in the UK. We, as you know, if you are from the UK, we break up usually about the 20th of July, and we have six weeks' summer holidays. And I thought to myself, great, I've got six weeks, I can really rest and recuperate. Eight days into the holiday, very early in the morning, we're talking about six o'clock in the morning. There's a phone call, unusual in itself. And when I picked up the phone, it was my head teacher or principal's wife. She was absolutely hysterical on the phone. And she had just discovered John Hughes, the head, lovely man, had died suddenly in his sleep. And so, far from it being restful, I helped her organise the funeral, I had to let the staff, the parents, the local authority know, and I was then acting head. And so it was a very surreal holiday, really. And I started the term as acting head. In those days, an incumbent deputy wasn't allowed to apply for the headship. And anyway, I'd been a deputy for a year, of which I'd had four months off. And they they advertised, they interviewed, but they didn't appoint. And then I was told that I could apply. I had no real thought that I would get the job, but I decided to put in an application, and I was really surprised after my interview in January 1984 when I was appointed to be the head. By that time, I was operating okay, but I wasn't right, and they couldn't find out what was going on, they couldn't identify why I wasn't recovering and thriving. And over the next five years, I had all sorts of tests and treatments. But each time I had a test or a treatment, I got worse, not better. And so by 1987, I had to start using a wheelchair around school, and that wheelchair took me from the office to the classroom. I could walk in the office, I could walk in the classroom, or I could walk in the hall, but I needed the help of the chair in between. Fast forward to 1996, I was in my garden, I was pricking out some plants, I leant across the table to pick up a seedling, and I sneezed at the same time as I stretched, and I felt something ping. And we're talking about probably three weeks before the end of the summer term. I was in a lot of pain. It was not unusual for me to be in pain, particularly sciatica. And anybody who's had sciatica knows it how challenging that can be. But I literally limped along till the end of term, and on the last day, I was doing the last assembly, and I had a high stool in assembly, which I used anyway because couldn't stand for more than a minute or two. Did assembly, said goodbye to everybody, got off my stool as the hall cleared, and I couldn't stand up. So I went to was taken to the GP who said I'd slipped a disc, went to bed. The next morning I could not move. I phoned a friend who came, I was taken to hospital. To cut a long story short, eventually they did a scan and they discovered that I a disc had exploded. Oh, to take it to surgery. When I came to and the first time I went to stand up, as I put my left foot to the floor, so I would faint. And when I spoke to the surgeon, his comment was, My dear, the operation was a complete success. It's you who are the failure. But the reality was I could not put any weight through my left foot without fainting. And so it took several blocks before I could actually manage to put my foot through the f on the floor. And so it took 18 months for me to walk to the end of a very different garden because I've moved since then, but very small garden. And for the rest of the time, I had to use a wheelchair. Now I'd used a wheelchair to get around school, but I'd always been able to get into the classrooms. But by this time, I couldn't physically get into any of the classrooms. I either couldn't get them through the door or I couldn't get the wheelchair around the classroom. And so I was established as a head. And for me, what was important, and I'd made a decision when I applied for the headship, however I was physically wasn't going to get in the way of creating the very best, happiest, most successful educational experience that I could for not only the pupils but for the teachers. And I'd worked in two schools where that was not the case, and I was determined that that would be the case. And so this didn't happen in a sequential line, but I had to find a way of empowering my staff to take radical responsibility for their performance and a shared responsibility for the whole staff. It was highly successful.

Chris Grimes:

And I think radical responsibility is something that I know is your main cut and thrust of leadership. Sorry to interrupt you, I have to ask this point. At what cost getting up, turning up, showing up, because lesser mortals would have just lay down to recover. You you you pushed yourself in an extraordinary way. That's really clear.

Gina Gardiner:

So if I may continue in terms of the story, because two years almost to the day when I ruptured the first disc, uh it was the last day of a summer term, I was sick and I ruptured a second disc. I had surgery again, failed back surgery. Remember, I'd learnt to walk again. This time I was completely and utterly wheelchair bound. I couldn't stand, so I had to use a transfer board. Now I was in hospital for seven, eight weeks. I got out of hospital the Friday before bank holiday weekend in August. I was back at school part-time on the Wednesday of the week of bank holiday Monday. And you asked me how what was it that enabled me to carry on? I had a really stark choice. If nobody had left out a cup or filled the kettle, I could not make a cup of tea. I could do daytime television or I could read at home, or I could go into school and I it was organized so somebody would help me get into the taxi and get from the taxi into school. I already had an electric wheelchair at school. I had people there who could hand me whatever I needed if I couldn't get it myself. But I could do something I loved that I felt was my purpose. My brain worked, my mouth has never stopped working, my hands, my ears worked, or I could be at home and be disabled. And so my choice was if I can go and do something and be useful and not be a burden to the school, why wouldn't I? So when five or six months later the consultant said to me, I think we might talk about you going back into school a couple of hours a week, I just laughed. I'd had three weeks part-time, and on the fourth week I started back full-time. So the thought that I could actually be useful, go and do something really that made a positive difference for me has always been the thing that's kept me going.

Chris Grimes:

Yes.

Gina Gardiner:

And so I ran my school for over 20 years, and for the most part, I ran my school from the wheelchair. The gift of that was creating a unique approach to the personal development and empowerment and leadership. And in terms of how it's it helped people at school, teachers, pupils, parents, those are the principles that I've used since I went into and started my own business in 2004, or 2005, really. That ultimately it's our choice how we turn up. It's our choice how we engage. And going back to our much earlier conversation, I'd like to think that I would have created a very similar approach to the development of people and potential. But I'm honest enough to know that if I hadn't had the disability and had to find a different way, I'd have probably done it very differently, been very, much more traditional in the approach, much more interfering, if you like. But you know, necessity is the mother of invention. And the interesting thing is how powerful an approach it is, whether you are a child, a pupil, a teacher, a client, a business leader, because it is about how do you turn up moment by moment. So one of the principles within the school is doesn't matter what your job is, whether you're a cleaner or you're a secretary or the head or the deputy, you are the leading professional in your role. Are you turning up and being the leading professional? Are you being the best you could be? And so a big part of that was having a shared understanding of what does excellence look like in the context of each thing, relationship, lesson planning, lesson delivery. And though that principle has worked since I started with businesses. So 2004, given an ultimatum, either stop what you're doing, because I also did a whole range of external jobs to bring a budget into school, not all at the same time. Ofsted inspector, uh trainer facilitator for the National College of School Leadership and the London Institute, workforce reform advisor, all of that to bring a budget into school for special needs and for technology. All of those things gave me the skill base that when I was faced with having to leave school because I was working a 16, 17-hour day. Remember, talk to you about the strong suit of taking things to the extreme in order to switch the body off. I then thought in uh I'd had a spinal stimulator, an internal spinal stimulator fitted in 2004. And I at the end of October, there was I was no longer a head teacher. I had no idea who I was, and I thought, what am I going to do? And I thought, I've got all of this experience and expertise, I'll start my own business. So in early 2005, I wrote my first two books, How to Kickstart Your Career and How to Manage Your Staff More Effectively, and they became my calling card, mainly for corporates to start with. And so I started doing coaching, mentoring, training, and some consultation for the big corporates. But in 2008-9, we had the last huge recession, and in one week I lost every contract for the whole year. By this time, I was doing some visiting lecturing for Essex University Business School, and they would commission me out. I was often invited back, and so I contacted those companies and said, Well, lots of the things you invite me back for, they can be avoided. How about I work with you on a much more consistent basis? And that became the model for my first business, which is Junior Gardner Associates, and within a year I didn't ever have to advertise, it was always a word of mouth. But I'm going to use the next bit, if I may, as my third leaf.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, absolutely.

Gina Gardiner:

So we've got to the recession. I'm working with people, the business is very successful, but I've got this real ache almost that I need to be doing more. I felt that the quality of leadership had deteriorated hugely in that recession and moving on. People were target-driven, they were forgetting that people are their treasure. And I was seeing more and more incredibly stressed and unhappy leaders who weren't managing to lead their people and were finding it difficult, people who were being managed and led, who were stressed and unhappy. And I felt I needed to get to more people. And so my third leaf is I set up genuinely you to be an online presence to be able to reach more people. I didn't know what I didn't know. I had about 10 people who were connections on Facebook, maybe 20 on LinkedIn. I'd never created a video, I'm not very technical. And so my third leaf is the is the birth, if you like, and the development of genuinely you.

Chris Grimes:

Yeah.

Gina Gardiner:

And so now, for example, I've got 26 plus thousand people on LinkedIn, I've got a presence, I've got a radio show, I'm all over social media like a rash. I still don't like technology, if I'm really honest. But for me, that's opened so many opportunities, both in terms of my own personal growth, but also in terms of how these days, with the internet, you can have a voice that can reach the many. And for me, helping people to step into their true power, that's not having dominion over other people, but ultimately recognizing that the best version of them today is the foundation for the best version of them tomorrow. That's something that I'm passionate about and very proud to be able to do. My fourthly, two years ago, on October the 8th, I went to do a keynote speech with another member of Collaboration Global, Harold Asman, um, Walter Asman, and he runs the World Mental Health Forum, and he invited me to do the closing speech of a week-long activity around if you want better mental health as an individual, then you need to lead your life in a very different way. If you are the leader of a company, are you creating psychological safety? How we lead ourselves determines the quality of our life and the life of others. We were at Westminster Chapel, fabulous building, but the stage is about 15 feet up. So once you're on there, there's no escape, and that's relevant. Because wonderful man that he is, he's not very good at keeping people to time. And so people who were on the program for 10 minutes were speaking for 45.

Chris Grimes:

Oops.

Gina Gardiner:

And instead of it finishing at half past eight, at half past 10, we were still going. Fatima Whitbread, the javelin thrower, was also speaking, sharing her story. And so at the end of the whole thing, I was I'd got a taxi to take me back to Liverpool Street Station. And under other circumstances, I'd have probably had a quick chat with her and said goodbye. But because it was so late, I said, I'm going to Liverpool Street Station. Are you going in that direction? Do you want to come? She said, Yeah, I'm going to Liverpool Street Station. I live in Ingst in Ingridston. Well, we're both on the same train line. So we started talking. She came on the show, and at the end of the show, we were carried on talking. She said, Well, I'm working with young people in care. Not working directly, I want to change the care system for young people in care and people who've left care. Will you help me write a few letters? Yes, says I. Little did I know. So that's October, early December. She says to me, I want to set up a charity. Will you help me set the charity up? I'd never set up a charity. I'd no idea. Yes, says I. Well, it's taken over my life pretty well. We still had a huge summit in April, inviting every different aspect of care and post-care, and we're now working to really change the care system. And so that would be my fourth leaf because if ever there is something that needs doing, given the terrible statistics which haven't changed since she was in care, she's uh care experienced in the 60s, then that's another thing that I am incredibly passionate about. Takes a lot of my time, but I think it's so important.

Chris Grimes:

And what I'm so struck with is the radical responsibility that you've applied throughout the journey of your four apples there. I mean, that was just extraordinary, total commitment, uh nothing work shy. I'm intrigued to know when we get later on into any advice you might give to a younger version of yourself about whether the cost of you know, the the physical cost of what you've applied yourself to with your radical responsibility was maybe in other people's frame of reference could be too high a cost to pay, maybe, because it just sounds in incredibly costly to your own well health because of I Yeah, I just say that radical responsibility is important, but it has to be rounded, it has to be across all aspects of your life.

Gina Gardiner:

And for me, I was on a course, this is after I'd left headship and doing deep development work, looking at values, and somebody else pointed out to me, health isn't one of your values. And I think that was really very telling. And so I had made work which was great pain control. I'd made it into an art form, and so I'd been so effective at switching the body off that I had things had no doubt got worse than they might have done if I had started to listen to my body and been much more balanced about my health. So it's a two-edged sword, and and I recognized that I had uh one side of the sword had too much influence.

Chris Grimes:

And what do you think of skiing now, looking back? Because of course it all roots in the skis that were too long.

Gina Gardiner:

That's a good one because I I I was actually sitting rather than skiing at the time, and so sitting is probably far more dangerous than skiing. Um if I could, I would ski because I just loved it. Yes, and you know, I recognized that it was a whole set of situations, but I also believe it there's nothing, there's not no such thing as coincidence, and if that hadn't happened, the gift of my developing a unique approach to leadership which has helped so many people, I don't think that would have happened. Yes, and so whilst it would have been nice to have had a Raspberry Flavoured pill and learn all of these things, you know, through that, yes, I don't regret anything, there's no point, but I would learn to do things differently, and it's still a work in progress. I still, particularly with the charity stuff, we would there's only the two of us, and there have been times when because things have had to get done, I have had to push the body beyond what's sensible. And so I do recognize that this is not a done and dusted thing, this is a probably going to be you know something that I have to be very mindful for the whole of my life, is that my health is important and I need to give it the time and the space that it requires.

Chris Grimes:

So we're now on to three things that inspire you. That was four very profound shapages. Now, three things that inspire you.

Gina Gardiner:

The natural world inspires me. There is nothing quite so special as a sunrise, or for me, more often than not, a sunset. You know, when I look at how amazing nature is, that you know, it knows to that the leaves are turning, and you know, we don't have to, if we get out of the way, nature knows what it's doing. And so for me, it's a constant source of inspiration. The second would be I'm inspired by the people I've worked with, that they're being prepared to open up, to be vulnerable, to share, and to do the work, because for me, the I work with people who want to engage and want to grow, and watching their growth not only inspires me, but perhaps gives me the greatest satisfaction. Because when that aha moment comes in, when you know they've been resisting, and then suddenly they have an insight that shifts things, that for me is is it's just the jewel in the crown. So that would be number two. A third inspiration. Well, I this is going to sound a bit trite, but I've got I love animals and my cat Leo, and now Leo's sadly departed, but I've got two seven-month-old kittens, they inspire me. Their zest for life, their capacity to when something goes wrong and they're frightened, and you see the great big tail, and they scoot under the chair, and then two minutes later they're back playing or back eating. And we've got a lot to learn, I think, about living in the moment and not carrying the portmanteau of baggage that we do about the past and not worrying about the future, so that we spoil the now. Because as we were talking about this morning, the only thing you've got is the now, and the fact that they trust and that they're affectionate and that that they play, that they have a joy in life. Not so great when they're knocking everything flying, and you know, I find another 56 cuttings to my plants, but ultimately I think if we can take the essence and the learning from them, that there's a lot to inspire you in that.

Chris Grimes:

And that's a delicious segue into the two in the tree shaking now, which is your two squirrels, which are borrow from the film Up where the dog goes, Oh, squirrels, what are your two monsters of distraction? It could be your cats, now you've said that, but what are the two monsters of distraction, two things that never fail to grab your attention, irrespective of anything else that might be going on for you?

Gina Gardiner:

One's positive and the other, I think it's positive, but it's not comfortable, if that makes sense. One is injustice. That really captures my intention. People being unfair, unkind, systems that put people down, whether we're talking about people who make assumptions about other people, and being in a wheelchair is an interesting one because people pat you on the head and ask you impertinent questions because you're in a wheelchair or use that voice, you know, would you like a sweetie? Um my secretary lots of hours of enjoyment when we were out, and she was pushing the wheelchair before I had the electric one. So that definitely captures my attention. I think the cats could be the second one because they certainly do grab my attention. But I think again, when I see something beautiful, whether that's natural world or somebody's gone to a great deal of trouble to create a beautiful meal or something like that, where perhaps it's the effort, somebody has gone that extra mile, that captures my attention, and very often it's what I call, and I don't mean it in a derogatory way, the little people. So I'll give you two examples. I was going to a meeting and I went into the loo. This is a while ago. I went into the ladies' loo and it was carnage. There were papers everywhere, the mirrors were splashed, the sinks weren't clean, the floor was a state, and it was quite distasteful to go in there. And I went back at coffee time, and there was quite literally a tiny little Filipino lady who made me feel like the giant in uh Jack and the Beanstalk. And she would had been working her magic and it was sparkling. And I went up to her and I said, Do you know you've done a fabulous job, thank you. And I watched this lady grow because somebody had recognized her worth. And it's all too easy for us to walk past these things. And another example, it was last Christmas, and I was going to do my Christmas shopping, and I was driving this poor young man, potty, because either the colour or the sizes weren't available on the spiracks. And I asked him, Could he go and find them? And while he was going to find them, I'd find something else. And so this poor young man was helping me. And at the end I said to him, Do you think I could talk to your manager? And I watched him go white, and the manager came up and said, What's the problem? And I said, There isn't a problem. I just wanted you to know what an extraordinarily wonderful young man you have who's been helping me, that he's a keeper, and it's too easy for us to complain. But actually, he's gone out of his way to be pleasant, professional, and I wanted you to know.

Chris Grimes:

Calling out lovely examples of radical responsibility at play at its best.

Gina Gardiner:

I think so. And I think if we all started to recognise how much quicker we are to moan than we are to praise, yes, and turned it the other way around. Research shows that we tell 37 other people when things go wrong, five when they go right. Wow. Moreover, when we tell people, it's a bit like a fishing story. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, it was a five-minute wait becomes a 45-minute wait by the time you get to 37, and then they spread the word. So for me, it's how do we turn up and recognize and thank. Thanking people is so important.

Chris Grimes:

It reminds me of my favourite ever leadership quote that I've ever heard, which just crystallizes everything, which is leadership is how you show up or how you turn up every single day. And beautiful shapages there. Now, the quirky or unusual fact of about you, we couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us.

Gina Gardiner:

I love to sing. And in my earlier days, I used to sing several nights a week. And I think because I mean life has got in the way, don't I I sing when I go to weddings and concerts and things like that. And quite often, you know, if I go to a concert, it's something I know I'm very naughty and I do sing it. But and I have had you know people say to me, You should be up there uh joining them. There hasn't been time, but I do love to sing.

Chris Grimes:

That's a kind way rather than saying, can we let them sing it? Because that's the person we've come to pay to sing it. But I'm sure you've got a picture. So we have shaken your tree, hurrah. Now we're gonna stay in the clearing, move away from the tree, and we're gonna talk about alchemy and gold now. When you're at purpose and inflow, and you've been given alchemy and gold by the bucket load, but what are you absolutely happiest doing in what you're here to reveal to the world?

Gina Gardiner:

I mean, I love keynote speaking. I think probably that's I love it all, but for me, the opportunity to engage with a larger group of people in one go, and I think it's a bit of a throwback to doing assembly. There is something very special when everyone's listening and slightly leaning forward on their seat, and when you have an audience in your hand, and I'm sure you found that when from your work, there is something very, very special about that. I love working with clients, I love doing training. I thoroughly enjoy doing the radio show. I am very well blessed. I've always worked with things that that I love doing, but at that capacity, that privilege of speaking to a large group of people, that's something that's very special.

Chris Grimes:

And it strikes me how polymathic you are, and no one can ever accuse you of being work shy. You've got up from the get-go and you've contributed, you've made a difference. It's fantastic. Now we're going to award you with a cake, Gina Gardner. So uh we talk about cake briefly. Do you like cake? Oh, it's my favourite food. I love that. And so, what's your cake of choice, please?

Gina Gardiner:

Oh, I've been, do you know, I've been thinking about this since you said it. It's a toss-up between a bakewell tart, which has a cherry on it, yes, or carrot cake.

Chris Grimes:

Let's get give you both. Let's be greedy and you can have both. Now you get to put a cherry on the cake of your bakewell tart or your garrot cake with stuff like what's a favourite inspirational quote that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future?

Gina Gardiner:

Einstein's definition of madness, because we all do it, is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. And we do it harder, longer, more frequently. And actually, it's like knocking your head against a brick wall.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely quote. With the gift of hindsight. Now, this is I'm particularly interested in this because of your path and trajectory to your journey to now. With the gift of hindsight, what notes, help, or advice might you proffer to a younger version of Gina Gardner?

Gina Gardiner:

One is that your health is precious. And actually, you know, the old adage from the airline put your mask, own air oxygen mask on first before you help others. I think it's very true. So I think health would be one thing. And I think if you're listening to this, your health is precious. And if your health deteriorates, I got gifts out of mine, but I'd like I did take it too far, and I think ultimately that's something that I would like, I would like my younger person to know.

Chris Grimes:

I mean, listening to you talk about your health, I was intrigued with how you pushed, pushed, pushed, pushed through a period of time when you could have just recovered by laying still. That's not a criticism, but just an observation of the incredible tenacity to make sure you showed up, even though you were causing mindedness, and I think there is a certain amount of that.

Gina Gardiner:

I'm not sure that that lying in a you know lying in a darkened room would have been the answer. I think it would have been finding a balance.

Chris Grimes:

Yes.

Gina Gardiner:

And one of the challenges that I had is that I not only did I have the ski accident, but I'd had a virus and I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue, was that that what you could get away with one day you would be very difficult another day. And so part of the challenge has been trying to determine where that that line is. Yes. But I think the fact that yes, it was great pain control, but ultimately what I've learned is that we have to sit with the pain, and very often there's lessons to learn around the pain, and it doesn't feel comfortable. But actually, if you do sit with it, it's much easier to manage than putting it away in a box, and then the box opens and you've got no choice.

Chris Grimes:

Yes.

Gina Gardiner:

So that would be one thing. I didn't really start working on my the relationship I had with me until I left headship, and I was 50, I would say 51, and I was back to being a spotty, well, eczema-ridden, angst-ridden teenager. And it took a lot of work to realise that actually my profession is not who I am, it's what I do. But my self-worth was very much tied up with being a head teacher. And who was I when I was not a head teacher? And so I think my a really important piece of advice to my younger self and to anybody who's listening: your self-worth is not about what you do, your bank balance, the size of your car, the size of your house. It is about learning to love and appreciate who you are, wobbly bits and all, and recognise that the relationship that you have with you is reflected in the relationship you have with everybody else. And so do that deep dive work. It's not easy, get some help, but actually it pays such dividends.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely. We're ramping up to Shakespeare to talk about how you'd most like to be remembered. But just before we get there, this is the pass the golden baton moment, please. So as you've experienced this from within, who would you most like to pass the golden baton along to in order to keep the golden thread of the storytelling going?

Gina Gardiner:

Oh I think Fatima Whitbread would be somebody who would have so much to offer, and in a sense, it it works very well with the fact that you've already had an introduction in terms of her, but you you haven't got to know her story and and her passion, and it's a remarkable story. So I think Fatima.

Chris Grimes:

That's a wonderful gift of a golden baton. Thank you. And now to the Shakespeare. When all is said and done, in fact, just before we get there, we're going to do a very exciting bit called Show Us Your QR code, please, which is where if we want to find out all about where we can find Gina Gardner on the internet, this is the link to Genuinely You. So would you talk about that and then where else we can go to find out all about you and your wonderful polymathic work in order to help others in the world of the World Wide Web?

Gina Gardiner:

So you can go to genuinely.com and you'll find lots there. Also to Gina GardnerAssociates.co.uk. I have a YouTube channel which I'm trying to build up. Please go and subscribe. That's GenuinelyU with Gina Gardner on YouTube. I'm on LinkedIn, Gina Gardner. You can find me there. I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram. I've avoided some of the other social media platforms so far. Or you can email me at Gina at genuinely.com. And if you'd like a free copy of my leadership blueprint, then just email me Gina at genuinely.com. Put blueprint in the subject line and I'll send you a free copy. Or listen to Gina Gardner and Friends on the Brushwood Media Network free app. It's around worldwide. For some reason, we're pretty big in Iceland. I have no idea why, but we're all around the globe. Come and listen to the show. Come and listen to Chris because he's going to be there very soon.

Chris Grimes:

Wonderful. And just talk about your audience of Brushwood Media. What's the reach of Brushwood Media and your show?

Gina Gardiner:

So 3.2 million listeners a month. Late 60% are in the US because it's syndicated around the US, and that's where the show started. A growing number in the UK, 20 something percent. The rest are spread around the world, and for some reason, as I say, we're pretty big in Iceland, which I find quite amusing.

Chris Grimes:

Fantastic.

Gina Gardiner:

But if you go on to your app store, it works for Android and Apple. It's Brushwood, or one word, Media Network. It's absolutely free. The show goes out at 8 a.m. UK and is repeated at 11 p.m. Monday to Friday. And it's got a really good time in terms of the rest of the world because of the repeats. And I have another show which is called Gina Gardner Showcases Tomorrow's Talent. So if you're a musician, gotta be good, and you'd like four of your tracks played and an opportunity to have a formal interview about your musical journey, then complete the form Gina Gardner, Tomorrow's Talent.com.

Chris Grimes:

Wonderful. And reciprocally, this show goes on to UK Health Radio, which is the world's number one talk health radio. You've given us some profound insights into your own health journey and your own relationship with health, which I know will be very, very interesting to our listeners. Also, thank you very much indeed for having me. You hosted me absolutely beautifully today on Gina Gardner and Friends, and I'm very, very much looking forward to speaking to your audience too.

Gina Gardiner:

Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Chris Grimes:

Back to the Shakespeare now. How, when all is said and done, this is borrowed from all the worlds of Stege and all the bedded wibbidbilly players. We're going to talk about legacy now. When all is said and done, Gina Gardiner, how would you most like to be remembered?

Gina Gardiner:

I believe that we all leave a living legacy moment by moment, in our words, our actions, or lack of them. But ultimately, I would like to be remembered for somebody who has made a positive difference to many. And that positive difference is helping them step into their genuine power, and they in turn to make a positive difference to the world in whichever way. Because like a stone being thrown into the pond, if that ripples out, and that profound and positive difference based on kindness, integrity, compassion, and the courage to do what's right rather than what's self-serving.

Chris Grimes:

That legacy is in the bag. I will don't need to put money on that particular equation. If you've enjoyed listening to the show and you'd like a conversation about guesting too, then uh thegodlistening to show.com is my show uh website. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn as well. And then very, very excitingly, um, there's a new series thrust, which has been part of the mainframe of thegoodlistening2.com all along, which is called LegacyLifereflections.com. It's a series stand within the show. It uses the same storytelling structure in order to record your story or the story of that very precious special someone for posterity, lest we forget before it's too late, with no morbid intention, but have a look at legacylifereflections.com to. Back to you, uh Gina Gardner. As this has been your moment in the sunshine in the Good Listening to show Stories of Distinction and Genius, is there anything else you'd like to say?

Gina Gardiner:

I'd just like to say thank you to you and to the people who are listening. And just to say, make the most of every day. It's really, really precious. Do something kind, do something for yourself, and thank you very much.

Chris Grimes:

I've been Chris Crimes. This has been Gina Gardner. This has been the Good Listening to Show and thanks to Joe, our gorgeous technician as well. Thank you very much indeed, and uh good night. You've been listening to the Good Listening to Show with me, Chris Grimes. If you'd like to be in the show too, or indeed gift an episode to capture the story of someone else with me as your host, then you can find out how care of the series strands at the Goodlistening2Show.com website. And one of the series strands is called Leadership Reflections. For business leaders or those of you that work in the leadership domain to be able to share your leadership lessons learned along your way. Maybe you'd like to play it forward as you move from one leadership opportunity to the next. Maybe you're about to stop and you'd like to drop the mic to preserve your leadership legacy, or you may just want to consolidate where you already are as you share your leadership reflections. Tune in next week for more stories from the clearing, and don't forget to subscribe and review wherever you get your podcasts.