The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

Words That Move: David L. Deutsch aka "The Billion Dollar Copywriter", on the Art of a Lifetime of Persuasion

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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What if your copy worked because you thought better, not because you wrote harder? That’s the challenge David L. Deutsch lays down as we dive into the craft of response-driven writing—from Ogilvy roots to billion-dollar wins—and the mental models that make persuasion stick in the real world. 

We go beyond formulas and catchy lines to ask sharper questions: who is your reader, what does their day feel like, and what would actually move them now?

David shares how he turns “boring” into compelling by reframing problems and dramatising the cost of inaction, a lesson echoed by the genius behind “Got Milk?”. 

We explore systems thinking for marketers—mapping loops, incentives, and constraints—so you fix the pattern, not just polish the prose. Music and copywriting meet as he explains pattern recognition, cadence, and structure; improvisation shows up in the yes-and approach that meets readers where they are and guides them forward without friction. And we talk about working with vistas in mind: motion, cities, and the right constraints that free your best ideas.

Along the way, you’ll hear why “consistently not stupid” beats “very intelligent,” how to write as if you’re persuading across a table, and what it takes to make the obvious inevitable. We also touch on legacy—how capturing stories helps those who listen and those who tell—and the long view that puts craft, clarity, and human connection ahead of noise. 

If you want copy that gets response, these are the habits and mindsets to adopt.

Enjoy the conversation, then try this: before you write your next line, map your reader’s day, name their stakes, and decide the one action that would truly help. 

If this episode resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who writes or sells, and leave a review to tell us the one idea you’ll use today.

Join David at https://www.speakingofwriting.com for free trainings and coaching. Connect with me, Chris Grimes on LinkedIn; Gift a Legacy Life Reflections conversation at https://www.legacylifereflections.com


And if you’d like to be in the show too, find out how at The Good Listening To Show website.  Contact me at chris@secondcurve.uk On X and Instagram, it’s @thatchrisgrimes


Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!

SPEAKER_03:

Welcome to another episode of the Good Listening to Show, your life and times with me, Chris Grimes, the storytelling show that features the clearing, where all good questions come to get asked, and all good stories come to be told. And where all my guests have two things in common. They're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors, a clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 54321, some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, and a cake. So it's all to play for. So yes, welcome to the Good Listening2 Show, your life and times with me, Chris Grimes. Are you sitting comfortably? Then we shall begin. And we're in welcome, welcome, and as I like to say, thrice welcome, hand the c hang the consequences to a very, very glorious Halcyon day here in the Good Listening2 Show Clearing, the show in which I invite movers, makers, shakers, mavericks, influencers, and also personal heroes into a clearing or serious happy place of my guests choosing, as they all share with us their stories of distinction and genius. And talking of stories of distinction and genius, I am absolutely privileged to have a world-renowned legend in the clearing. David L. Deutsch, he's a copywriting genius. He's been called the billion-dollar copywriter. You're called David L. Deutsch. My presumption that could be L for legend, but it might be to differentiate you from a British Oxford University atomic and laser physicist. I don't know if you knew you shared the same name, David, as that physicist.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I I like to say what are the odds that two geniuses could have the same name? You know? What what what are the odds indeed? What are the odds of that?

SPEAKER_03:

You know? And one of your, if I may say, disciples of your copywriting uh mentorship scheme, uh Cassie Quinton, has been really, really helpful in introducing us, and I'm very delighted that she has, because um, it is really, really exciting, and you've created a bit of a buzz and a bit of a hum in the sort of hive mind of copywriters and writers that I know and have worked alongside. I do have a very uh lovely gentleman in Vietnam who's now sweating because he just assumes he's going to be out of a job because now I'm talking to the likes of David L. Deutsch. So um for those of us that well, I I'm delighted to meet you, and I I've really enjoyed researching you. If I may call you the copywriter's copywriter, um you spent the last four decades making sure companies got copy, and I'd very much like you to unpack that for us. But if someone doesn't have a frame of reference for you, David L. Deutsch, would you like to just say how you most like to answer the question, hello, what do you do? What's your way, David, of describing the the sort of silky skill and the art of copywriting that you've brought to bear?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I I guess the the way to describe it is is I help people get response in whatever that way they need to get a response. Whether that's sending a letter to one person, you know, that a billion-dollar deal depends on, or whether that's writing an ad that goes to millions of people, or a sales letter that goes to, you know, millions of people, uh, whether it's a post on social media, you know, we all want to get response. We all want to be responded to in one way or another. And I help people with, you know, the the persuasion. Like how do you persuade someone? How do you convince them it's in their best interest to respond? You know, what are the what are the what are the mechanisms that have proven effective for that? And and how do you even, you know, how do you even think about that? Because I I think a lot of that, a lot of copywriting is really thinking. It's not, oh, these words and I got to do these words here in this order. But it's really just thinking about what is that person, what is their day like, what is that person like? And what's gonna, what do they care about? What are they what keeps them up? And then what are they gonna respond to? And then writing into their pain in how you actually persuade them. Yes, exactly. First thinking into their pain, though.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Right? Because I think people make the mistake of writing too quickly. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Before they've really thought it out. And you've cut your teeth on the very best. I know that you were with the father of advertising back in the day, uh, David Ogilvy of Ogilvie in Mather. That's the acclaimed Madison Avenue advertising agency, I think you first got going with.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes. And that that was incredible to get started there. Because it was kind of like a teaching hospital. You know, the teachings emanating from Ogilvy, and you know, uh everybody was about learning, and you know, you had his books and you had him. Um and it it I was lucky in that he was a very results-oriented advertising person. He wasn't into awards, right? He was into what moved the needle. He was into sales, you know, to sales. Um, and he loved direct response. And so when I eventually went into direct response, I was prepared for that.

SPEAKER_03:

And indeed, then the fruits of your love, labor, and attention to what you're doing, you're now called the billion dollar and uh the billion dollar copywriter, which proves that um you know what you're talking about. What are some of the campaigns you're most, most proud of in this extraordinary 40-year career?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, it's funny. Um a lot of the campaigns, you know, it was it was fun doing stuff for General Foods when I got to work with the Wicked Witch of the West from The Wizard of Oz, Margaret Hamilton. Uh, she was kind of the spokesperson for the for the advertising. Um and, you know, the things that I remember are it's funny, are are kind of the biggest challenges. Like one time I had to write a book for us for what's called estate planning, which means after you die, how do you make sure your money goes to the right people? How do you make sure that your heirs don't get taxed and all that? And it was just not only was the most boring subject in the world, it was the most depressing subject in the world, because who wants to think about, you know, when they're God? And the challenge of doing that and making it interesting, you know, bullets like how to avoid disinher how to avoid accidentally disinheriting your heirs, right? Turning boring stuff into stuff.

SPEAKER_03:

That's a very important question. We're already thinking that's hooked me. We're all interested. Uh what's the answer?

SPEAKER_00:

But it it really taught me how do you take something that's boring and just factual and and turn it into interesting? Because I think that's what copywriting is, right? It's making things interesting, it's making the old new, it's making the the new familiar, and you know, familiar is the old, and it's making things interesting that aren't inherently interesting.

SPEAKER_03:

And you're mentioning legacy uh was a a brilliant segue into something at the very end that as we know, we first connected when I talked to you about something called legacy lifereflections.com, which is something I'm working on at the moment. And uh you were very generous in when I first got in touch with you. You gave me some copy ideas for it already, which I noticed was very instinctive of you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, I remember that. And that's you know, that's something I love to do. You talk about what do I do or what do I love to do? It's that. Like it's looking at something and seeing what it needs and you know, where it needs to go. And uh just opening people's eyes to a different way of thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03:

And we'll come on to directing people to your speaking of writing. And well, it it it you can describe it how you want, but it's your it's your main frame of where you encourage people who want to be mentored in the art of writing to come along to, isn't it? Yes, the speaking of speaking of writing.com website. Yes, which and I promise we'll there's a very funky bit at the end called show is your QR code, please, and we'll point people very much to where they can come and find you, which is very exciting. Do you want to just say a little bit more about the epicentric thing of got copy? Because there's a sort of got milk attachment to that, which I really enjoyed researching. So I mentioned you've spent the last four decades making sure companies got copy. Why do you frame it in that way?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I guess, you know, part of it is just loving that old campaign. I don't know if it ran in the in the UK as well, but you know, they they were having a problem with milk. Nobody was drinking milk anymore. And, you know, this is also a great example of copy thinking. Uh they're like, okay, what do we do? We have to tell people that it's got lots of vitamins. We have to tell people it's good for them and builds bodies 12 ways or you know, whatever it is. We have to tell them it's delicious. And instead, somebody did some thinking and said, Well, why do people, you know, drink milk? They drink milk because it goes with things, right? It goes with cookies, right? It goes, you know, um, it goes with a peanut butter sandwich and you know, and and and the associations that it has. And so instead of highlighting how good it is to have milk in a way, they highlighted how bad it is not to have milk. And one of the best ones was somebody eating a you know, peanut butter sandwich, and it's all sticky and it's in their mouth, and they need something, they need some milk, because you know, that's that'll get it unsticky, and that's great to drink with a peanut butter sandwich, and they don't got milk, right? And it's the kind of the horror of that, which is you know playful and funny, right? Because it's an exaggerated thing, but we all relate to it.

SPEAKER_03:

And then got copy then uses the same simplicity imperative to make sure we we need the right copy to persuade, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. What happens when you don't got copy? What happens when you don't have good copy, right? Nothing happens really. People don't know about you, they don't buy from you.

SPEAKER_03:

Wonderful. So, shall we get on the open road? It's my great delight and privilege and pleasure to curate you through the uniqueness of this structure, and I'm really intrigued to know what you think about it and how you experience it, David. So, any questions before we start? Yeah, no, I think we're good. Let's get right into it. So there's gonna be a clearing or serious happy place of you, David L. Deutsch's uh choice to get onto in a moment on the open road of this. Then there's gonna be a tree, a lovely juicy storytelling exercise called 54321. There's gonna be some alchemy, some gold, a couple of random squirrels, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, a golden baton, and a cake. So it's absolutely all to play for. So you're taking a swig because it's not a memory test. That was milk, hopefully. Got milk? Was that milk in your cup? Yeah, no, this was tea. I I need the caffeine to go through this. But you needed the milk to go with it. We both know that. So um, let's do this then. So, your clearing, first of all, is your serious, happy place. Where does David L. Deutsch, copywriter, copy coach, game changer, go to get clutter-free, inspirational, and able to think? Where is your clearing?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think in terms of just where I love to go, it's any place with a vista. You know, any place with a view, whether that's in the ocean and you can look out onto the horizon, whether it's a lake, whether it's a mountain, looking at mountains, being on top of a mountain, being on top of a high building. There's there's something very inspiring about seeing more of the totality. You know, it's like that Merlin thing where King Arthur Merlin educated King Arthur in England when all the tribes were fighting with each other, and said, you know, I want to take you something. And he he took him above England. And he said, What do you see? And King Arthur said, There are no borders, there are no lines like on the map, right? Separating everyone. Said, that's right, you know, and it it taught Arthur something about how to look at his country as being without borders and without division. And there's something about being high, seeing an open vista, I think, that really inspires and feeds me in a way that being, you know, inside in a room or being in a forest where you can't see, you know, far away does. So that's that's kind of what came to me for that one.

SPEAKER_03:

And if I may congratulate you for the notion of a world-renowned copywriter taking a world without borders as your vista to then have as your clearing. That was a that's my interpretation of what you just said, and I loved it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, I think it yes, it it opens you up to different ways of thinking. You know, it's funny too, and you I don't know if where I like to do thinking or a clutter-free space, but you know, when I and I don't know if that's a separate question, but when I heard that part of it, I thought the clutter-free place where I do my best thinking is like on an airplane with my remarkable, you know, where I can just write and there are no distractions. You know, it's just that kind of the that kind of uh what do they call that, sensory deprivation almost.

SPEAKER_03:

You can't be interrupted. And there's a traveling towards the new horizon you're traveling towards if you're doing that on an aircraft.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And not to go down a rabbit hole, but there is something about motion, you know, whether you're walking and thinking, you know, or I suppose whether you're an airplane going 600 miles an hour, there is indeed something about a forward motion that kind of triggers your brain.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. And it plays beautifully into that Nietzsche quote of the best ideas happen outdoors uh for a start. That's very resonant. Um and cling, that was like a yes, that was your own version of my bell there. I was hoping that was ignorable, but I I picked it up and I think the audience did too. So that's great then. Um, A World Without Borders is your clearing. I'm now gonna arrive because of my theatre and acting background with a tree in your clearing, and just to explain, this is a bit waiting for Godot-esque, a bit deliberately becket-y, and I'm gonna shake your tree to see which storytelling apples fall out. A recent guest asked me, is your tree the Garden of Eden? And I went, uh, not that I knew of, but actually it does play into all storytelling archetypes, so it's wherever you feel it might be and what it represents. But uh, this is a bit like, how do you like these apples? And I shake your tree, and then uh shaking the apples is now the beautiful storytelling exercise, which is called 54321, where David L. Deutsch, you've had five minutes to have thought about four things that have shaped you. Three things that inspire you, two things that never fail to grab your attention, and when we get to that bit, I'll explain where the squirrels come in. And then the one is a quirky or unusual fact about you we couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us. So it's not a memory test. Over to you to interpret the shaking of the canopy of your tree as you see fit. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so it's four things that have shaped me, right? Um I would say one is Eastern philosophy, just learning about different ways of thinking, more Buddhist, more Zen, thinking differently about reality, thinking about the duality of things, that contrasting things can exist together, thinking about the idea that the world is really not reality, but in a way our perception of reality. And I think that kind of thinking is a very good counterbalance to Western philosophy, which is very like the world is real and there are things and there's knowledge we could know, which is great stuff, right? There's a lot of great stuff in there, but it needs that kind of counterbalance. And I I think that's also helped me a lot because a lot of creativity is kind of thinking in different ways and thinking more that reality is malleable, thinking being able to hold two things at once, duality. Um so I I credit that with a lot of things. Um systems thinking, mind mapping. Um, I'm inherently a very non-visual person, so it really helps me to draw things. When I started drawing things out, when I started mapping things out, when I started using systems thinking in terms of how things connect together in loops, this happens, this happens, this happens. Um I realized that really so much in the world is not really a cause and effect, but really part of a bigger system. Right. If you analyze why something happens at a company, right? It's not, oh, these people aren't doing their jobs. Well, they're not doing their jobs because they're not properly trained and they're not properly motivated, and all these systems don't interact in a way that inspires and motivates these people to do their jobs. So let's look at the whole system of that.

SPEAKER_03:

And that was intriguing that you just said that inherently you're not visual. My presumption would have been as a copywriter, you see everything in pictures and you're able to see the connections in pictures, but you're talking that you prefer the systematic approach rather than the visual approach.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I need to deliberately activate that part.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, and I need to do that by drawing on a piece of paper or on my remarkable, or, you know, um deliberately activating, you know, seeing something.

SPEAKER_03:

There's that famous story of someone changing the new city logo by writing it on the back of by drawing it quickly on the back of a napkin. And then do you remember this story? And then they spent almost years coming back to the same napkin, and you just had this instinct to immediately do it. And then they researched why that was right, but he was right from the get-go because his instinct was so strong. And this is this was someone hugely experienced who used all that experience to bring it to bear to give that moment of spontaneity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and I I I think, I mean, I'm leaping ahead a little probably, but that's a great, that's how I think about writing in a certain way. Is I think people sit down to write and they'll they become labored and they go back to when they were in school and they start writing in that way. Rather than, well, what's your instinct? What would you say to someone in person about this product? Right? That's where the writing should come from. That's where the persuasion should come from. So I love that napkin story.

SPEAKER_03:

Wonderful. And I'm loving what you're doing so far as well. This is fantastic. So we're still in the shapage of the canopy of your tree. So take that wherever you'd like to go next.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Um, and then in terms of other things that have shaped me, you know, uh obviously working at Ogilvie and having a sense of what that advertising isn't winning awards, advertising isn't being clever and doing, you know, doing commercials. You're really proud of how creative they are, right? It's about getting results, it's about selling things, it's about, you know, getting awareness and changing people's minds. Um, and then I think the other thing that has shaped me over the years as I I think about it is music, you know, something that I've always kind of done and has has just always helped me in terms of having a discipline like that. And also in terms of, I think, pattern recognition, because music is patterns, right? It's patterns of notes. And it's very hard to play music if you don't see the pattern. If you don't see, oh, it's a scale going up, oh, it's going down in thirds, you know, oh, look, it's it's it's it's repeating the same pattern. Oh, now it's the pattern inverted, right? Bach just turned it upside down to do it. And it's it's the symphony of copywriting as well. That that's very resonant. Yes. And you know, the symphony of you know, A B A B A, you know, what comes first, what comes next. And so it's helped me to look at writing in a way, in the same way. Like what are the patterns, what is the system, what is the structure?

SPEAKER_03:

A symphonic approach to writing, that's lovely. And uh, did you study music it to get your appreciation of the inner workings, set the system?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh I did. Actually, I was a music major in college, and I was all set to go on to graduate school and uh be a music, you know. I was gonna be a music history major because I I wasn't a good enough performer to perform. But um I mean, I'm imagining you're on a piano at this point, but maybe not.

SPEAKER_03:

What was the instrument you were playing?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, I am kind of keyboard. And um and I decided, you know what? I don't want to just keep going to school and and learning. I I want to go out in the real life. And uh and so I I kind of turned down a scholarship to go to grad school and instead did some teaching and then wound up at Ogilvie somehow.

SPEAKER_03:

And you've just reminded me that a writer is sometimes called a keyboard warrior, so that that's all making complete sense. Um wonderful. We we might have done the four shapages, or is there one more? No, I think that's yeah, I think we did four. Thank you very much. The system is working, it's working. Uh now we're on to three things that inspire you, uh David.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh three things that inspire me. I think nature inspires me, being in nature, uh, being outside. Uh ideas inspire me. When I see a new idea, when I see a great idea, it inspires me. It inspires first. I go, I wish I'd thought of that. But then I go, I want to kind of go come up with a great idea for this client or this ad or whatever. Um and you know, traveling, being in, you know, cities. I grew up in New York City, so I kind of get withdrawal symptoms if I'm out of a of a big city for too long. So um being there, the energy, you know, in the same way nature kind of calms me down and gives me a different kind of energy, yeah, then being in a city gives me a more electrical kind of recharge. And where are you where are you speaking from today?

SPEAKER_03:

Uh uh now today I'm in North Carolina. Uh-huh. So when were you last in New York? Two questions. When were you last in New York? And when did you last discover that's a brilliant idea? When was your last thought of that? Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I was in New York probably a couple of months ago. Um Me too, actually. We could have nearly overlapped. Yeah, we wish to let each other know when we're, you know, in different parts of the world. Um and uh, you know, gosh, uh the last time I had a brilliant idea. I I don't know, every idea that I have I think is brilliant and I love while I'm working on it.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, I I I always also that was a lovely answer. I meant when did you last experience? Oh, that's a lovely idea. Let me help with that copy, or that I something you noticed rather than wonderfully crediting your own brilliant ideas, which I don't doubt you have made.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. The last, I you know, I don't know. I mean, constantly, you know, you see a TV commercial or you see, you know, a book or or something. I don't know if I could specifically say, okay, I remember, you know. I'm very bad, I'm very bad at that's why I like this structure. I'm very bad at, you know, what was the last, or you know, what's your like if you say what's your favorite book, I will suddenly be able to not remember any book that I've ever read in my entire life. So I I I warn you of that right now. Thank you. Don't go off, don't go off script for God's sake.

SPEAKER_03:

For God's sake, yes. Lovely. Um, next uh thing that inspires you.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, the next thing that inspires me. Um great writing inspires me when I see a well-turned phrase or when I see someone that has said something in a particularly succinct way, you know, like when I see someone that has taken the the banal or banal, as we say, on this side of the pond, and and and elevated like Churchill. You know, you read words of Churchill's like, my God, like how how does he do that? How does he elevate the English language like that?

SPEAKER_03:

And just before we started um talking of Churchill, I said the word tickety-boo, and you asked me about it, and then I told you that it was something that was uh a song in a song about optimism during World War II, which was of course the Churchillian era. Just as a resonance for what we were talking about before.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and so many great phrases, you know, come from there. You know, the what is it? Uh what is it stay calm and carry on or something like that? Keep calm and carry on. Keep calm and carry on, right.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. Which are are bedecking mugs and t-shirts and tea towels across the world to this day. So yes, so great words and great phrases do last the test of time. That's the other magical thing about really powerful copywriting.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that is true. That is true. Look at some of the old ads. You know, whether it's uh they laughed when I sat down at the piano or at 60 miles an hour, the loudest noise in this Rolls Royce comes from the electric clock. Um, probably a lot of our expressions come from old ads.

SPEAKER_03:

They do, yes. I'm just enjoying as everyone percolates and tries to remember their own refrains or favourite adverts. There was a very famous one in the UK which is not particularly profound, but it's it everyone remembers the advert of being a secret lemonade drinker. There's a man by the fridge saying, I'm a secret lemony drinker. R Whites. R Whites. That's just and of course it's totally random because R Whites nowadays long defunct, but everyone remembers the the the man by the light of the refrigerator enjoying R. White's lemonade. Oh wow. There's a danger that no one knows what I'm talking about at all there, but that's there is, yeah, there is that.

SPEAKER_00:

Probably no one remembers where's the beef from? Where's the beef from? Where's the beef from Wendy's? They when they were trying to say we when they were trying to say we have a lot of meat in our hamburgers. They kind of put down the competition by this old woman was going into like a McDonald's or the competition, and she'd look at the hamburger, and it was just this little little round silver dollar of beef, and she'd go, Where's the beef? And that became kind of a catchphrase. Um As we're always sorry. I was gonna say, and a politician actually used that years later. He was in a debate with Ronald Reagan or something like that, and maybe, or maybe it was Ronald Reagan himself, and the his opponent said something, and he, you know, uh, and the guy said, he said, you know, I don't understand what he's complaining about here. Where's the beef? Fantastic. And, you know, it was just that became memorable all over again and repopularized.

SPEAKER_03:

As you were riffing, it also rem reminded me. I grew up in Uganda between my being two and a half and ten, and there was a particular, I think it was an SO advert where there's a tiger in my tank, and you've just reminded me of oh, I've just remembered that for the first time randomly in a long time. That was here for a long time. I've listened I said no rabbit holes for my it's a rabbit hole. Don't you have a bell? The bell has just gone off. That was a rabbit hole. If you're still with us, this is still no one should have dozed off because this is a good conversation. That could have been the three things that inspire you. Yes? Yes. And now the system is working. I'm I'm delighted for both of us. The symphony of our of our structure. Uh, now on to the two things that never fail to grab your attention and rather deliciously borrowed from the film Up. Have you seen the film Up, David?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. I think I saw it with the balloons where the balloons take the house.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, it's the most beautiful, heart-wrenching montage of disappointment at the beginning about a life not quite lived whilst trying to live it, whilst life gets in the way. Anyway, the montage is beautiful, but within it, there is a dog that goes, Oh, squirrels. And so there are sort of random squirrels. So it's your two monsters of distraction. What two things, what two squirrels, metaphorically, never fail to grab your attention, irrespective of anything else that's going on in your life.

SPEAKER_00:

Is I I have to ask you this though. Is that where that expression squirrels, a squirrel went by, you know, for distractability? Is that where that comes from? Or that's where the movie got that from?

SPEAKER_03:

I susp do you know what? I don't know the answer. I suspect my presumption is that that's where the movie got that from. Yeah. But I whenever you think, oh, squirrels, um, everyone can relate to that because there's something random to each idiosyncratic human being that stops them in their tracks that may not stop anybody else in their tracks.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And and there's also something wonderfully appropriate as an as a writer about that image, like of a squirrel going by. Because squirrels, by their nature, kind of dart by really quickly and and kind of grab your attention like that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

In that little peripheral way.

SPEAKER_03:

So And I'm reading between the lines. I'm glad you're enjoying the structure too, which is I love that, and it's music to my my ears covered in earphones. I need structure.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm a very unstructured person by nature, so I always like to be in structure. It's a nice, secure feeling. Lovely. So let's to your s to your squirrels, sir. To my squir on to my squirrel. See, I got distracted by squirrels while I was trying to talk about squirrels, which is very appropriate. So that's probably one of the things that just, you know, distracts me, obviously, is um just anything interesting and and getting off on a tangent like that. But in thinking about that, um, you know, anything at the margins, I love that word margins, like the extremes, right? Anything that's the best, anything that's the worst, anything that that even like, you know, the the tallest building, I want to explore it. Um, you know, the I want to read about, you know, even people at their best and people at their worst. That's probably why I'm so fascinated about World War II or the Civil War. Because, you know, you can learn a lot about reading about people in ordinary life and how they go through their lives in nice, peaceful times. But you really learn a lot reading about how people go through a civil war or World War II. And, you know, the stories in there are just so amazing because it is the extremes, the extremes of hardships, the extremes of challenge. So I I think as a as a writer, as a student of human nature, and just as a curious, if not nosy person, I I extremes will always, you know, grab my attention away.

SPEAKER_03:

And I love the expression on the margins, of course, because that's where where the action is, probably, because it's people in adversity overcoming challenges and obstacles.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and and it's also, yeah, where things are just interesting. Yes. Um Great Squirrel. Great Squirrel. That's one of my favorite squirrels. Um and uh, you know, maybe this is redundant to what came before, but I I I think what will always get my attention is just something that's beautifully expressed, or words that just go together, writing that's incredibly heartfelt, beautiful, well expressed, clever humor kind of falls into that, you know, that will that will get my attention, right? Oops, someone just told a joke or something you know, or this is funny.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. I I'm fascinated by sometimes deconstructing a joke to work out while it why it's funny and what the without analyzing it too deeply, but I love it when you get the spontaneity of language that surprises you in the form of a joke.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, right. And you know, there's probably a connection between humor and the margins and extremes, because humor in a way is an extreme. It's pushing the boundaries, yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Humor I often say humor pushing the boundaries, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

It's pushing the boundaries, but I think it's also pushing the boundaries in terms of like uh flipping something.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Right? You know, the opposite your expectations, and now it's the opposite of what you're expecting, and it's fun you laugh.

SPEAKER_03:

And in com I do a lot of comedy improvisation, and that's called technically, that's called a reverse when you reverse the audience's expectation. I appreciate you probably knew that, but that was just labeling the sort of technique of subverting one's expectations through a brilliant punchline or a reverse of what the audience expects is happening.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. One day we'll have to talk about my very limited experience doing stand-up and my very limited experience doing improv, which I've totally enjoyed and feel like, especially the improv, I feel like it really was great training. It was great for copywriting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Because copywriting, in a way, is yes and.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Right? It's always like, yes, and you know, you get this, right? Oh, you feel this way, you know. Yes, I empathize and understand. And here's why that means you should buy this product.

SPEAKER_03:

That's that's music to my ears as well, that comedy improvisation also inspires a copywriter. I mean, it's a wonderful underlying mindset, yes, and yes, and yes, and as you as you articulate it, is a wonderful mindset.

SPEAKER_00:

Aren't we always though improvising, right? We're improvising right now. And when we sit down to write, we're improv we're we're improvising. We may be putting it on the page, but we're improvising, you know, what we're saying.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. Uh wonderful squirrels, congratulations. And can we now have the one which is a quirkier, unusual fact about you, copywriter, copy coach, and game changer, David L. Deutsch? Uh, what is a quirky fact about you?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh god, I've got so many quirky facts. Um, I can I can juggle, which you know, is is a quirky fact. I can play the diggeridoo a little bit. Um any chance of a solo? Any chance of a solo. I think it's back here somewhere. Oh, here we go. Don't tempt me. Don't tempt me. Um, yeah, so those are two things, I think. You know, I tend to like to to to be able, I I'm not a good I'm a good beginner. And so I I like doing, you know, I like learning the didgeridoo a little bit. I like learning juggling a little bit. I can't do 10 bowls at once, you know, while I eat an apple. But, you know, I can I could do three pretty credibly.

SPEAKER_03:

That's good enough for me. That that is juggling if you can do three. Yes. I mean, you need to stand in a corner on your own if you can only manage two.

SPEAKER_00:

That's my trick. It's just to be able to do things well enough to say that I do it.

SPEAKER_03:

So rather than that was brilliant, you just get that was that that was juggling. Yeah, well done. So that's really good. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

And aren't we juggling right now? We're juggling so many things at once.

SPEAKER_03:

And if I may, uh arrogantly, I think we're doing it majestically. It's lovely. So we have shaken your tree. Now we stay in your clearing, which is beyond margins as we sail or on towards a horizon with no boundaries. Um now we're going to talk about um alchemy and gold. When you're at purpose and in flow, what are you absolutely happiest doing in what you're here to reveal to the world?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think as we talked about earlier, I'm uh I'm really happiest solving problems. Right? You had a problem with your site, you showed it to me. Hopefully, I was able to solve a little bit of those problems.

SPEAKER_03:

And I'd still appreciate some help on that, and I'd love to talk to you about that afterwards.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, okay, you've got it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, on air, I've officially got David Eldovich's help, which is lovely.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but I mean, I I I don't know. I I it the best way to get my help is to say this problem is unsolvable, or you know, I'm I'm stuck on this. Because I, you know, and I just I think it's just I like the challenge of that. And I like the thinking that you have to do to solve that. And I think writing in a way is is ultimately all about solving problems. Whether it's the big problem of how do I position this product, how do I even talk about this, how do I get people's attention to the problem of, okay, well, I said this, now how do I connect this to the next thing I want to say? And going how do I make this interesting now? Yes, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_03:

And I presumably that's in the DNA of your being an original ad man in that how do you add proper got copy to this particular campaign to sell this particular product? And again, congratulations because you're known as the billion-dollar copywriter.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Just wanted to blow that up. And it probably is in my DNA to some extent to just, you know, want to do that. Like if I see something that's badly written, I have just I I want to go in and and rewrite it. So or at least, or better yet, tell the person how to rewrite it and then they can rewrite it.

SPEAKER_03:

So you talked about life in the margins. This is you going around with a red pen and sort of scrawling in the margins to correct it. Love that. And now I award you with a cake. Hurrah! So we need to talk briefly about cake. Do you like cake, uh, David L. Deutsch? What does the L stand for? I never did ask you, actually. Uh Lee. Oh. Not legend, Lee. Lee.

SPEAKER_00:

Not not legend, right. Not E L. Although if someone, if someone says, okay, I need you to sign this David L. Deutsch, and I go, is that E L? So I make that same joke you did earlier on the L. It was funny. Thank you very much. Here a week, as they say.

SPEAKER_03:

So what cake would you like if I was to sort of send you one? What's your cake of choice?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I have to I do have to tell you about cake, that even though I love cake, uh, it doesn't love me unless it's gluten-free and dairy-free and sugar-free. So got milk doesn't apply, it's got to be dairy-free. I I have to get my cake from like, you know, someone that makes it for me, or you know, either a friend or a baker that will make me a cake to those specifications.

SPEAKER_03:

In my uh just talking about cake or sweet treats, in my legacy life reflections endeavour, um, I have struck upon the idea because it accesses um stories that are precious to us, it's made me think of uh having, well, I I offer people who want to talk about it the choice of three sweets that your nana or granddad or your mum or your dad might have most enjoyed. And in the UK, there are very iconic boiled sweets. One's called a Werther's original, another one is a Devon Toffee, and then another one is a mint humbug. Tapping into yeoldy sweety shoppy terrain. So if I may ask you, just while I'm riffing on this, if I was to offer you a sort of yeoldy sweety shoppy, iconic sweet of old, what would you most like if you don't want a cake?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, um I I don't tend to like fancy toffee, you know, things like that. I tend to like, you know, a plain piece of chocolate or a plain piece of you know white chocolate or you know, the cake with vanilla icing or something like that. The Milky Bar Kid.

SPEAKER_03:

Was that one of your campaigns? Does that was that in America as well? Because I think it was an American kid with the Milky Bar Kid is strong and tough. Do you remember that? No, I don't think we had that here.

SPEAKER_00:

The Milky Bar Kid. Uh they had Snickers for a while where it was kind of like you're mean when you're hungry, and they would give people Snickers bar and they wouldn't be go back to being themselves.

SPEAKER_03:

So the Milky Bar Kid was strong and tough. The Milky Bar Kid was whatever the rest of that rhyme was. But anyway, sorry, that I've gone down my own rabbit hole. So anyway, so yeah, I can't furnish you with a bold suite of choice either. You want dark chocolate or milky bar. Yes. Or milk or white chocolate. So um, that's just to get me on to the last uh suffused with storytelling metaphor about cake. So you now get to put a cherry on the cake, uh, gluten-free, dairy-free, made for you rather fussily by someone.

SPEAKER_00:

I hate cherries on cakes, by the way. I don't know why people put cherries on things and put them in drinks and put them on cakes. You don't like that, or you I I don't like, but I appreciate the metaphor. Thank you. I mean, cake is a great metaphor, too. It's like, you know, let them eat cake, or you can't have your cake and eat it too. Like, like it people relate to cake.

SPEAKER_03:

So another affirmation of the system working. Thank you. Yeah. So now you get to put a cherry on the cake with stuff like uh what's a favorite inspirational quote, David, that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I don't I don't know if it's a one that has always given me sucker and pulled me toward my future, but there's a there's a quote from uh Charlie Munger, um, who you may know, he was he worked with, he was kind of the brains behind Berkshire Hathaway with with Warren Buffett. And he said something that I've always loved. It's it's it is remarkable how much long-term advantage can be had by trying to be constantly not stupid instead of being very intelligent. And I love that because I think a lot of what I teach about creativity is helping people find the obvious, right? Or at least what is obvious in retrospect. And sometimes, like for instance, that's the opposite of what everyone else is doing. Because the intelligent thing is, you know, to do what everyone else is doing and try to do it better and and improve upon it and and be intelligent about it. And when in reality, it's just, well, why not just do something completely different? Why not, why not, you know, why not, instead of doing a regular soft drink, why not do something called Red Bull and make it the opposite of drinks? Make it not taste good, make it, you know, really expensive, make it in a little bitty can, you know, no caffeine. No, we're gonna fill it with caffeine, right? We're gonna fill no sugar, we're gonna fill it with sugar, you know? And and was this your idea? In retrospect, that's very obvious, yes, right? So it's like don't be stupid, don't be what do what everyone else is doing. And I think sometimes we and myself included just try to outsmart ourselves. And I think that's especially true in writing, where people become very, well, let me remember all the things I learned about writing and the formulas. And I need to begin with a startling fact, and I need to be, and and they just forget the very obvious fact of that you're just trying to persuade someone, and you're just trying to persuade them the same way you would persuade them sitting across the table from you. So don't be stupid, don't get away from that. Do the obvious thing and just say what you would say to me if you were sitting across the table from me.

SPEAKER_03:

And could we deliberately reincorporate the quote? Because it was such a wonderful one that I think it and it's multi-layered. So can we hear it again?

SPEAKER_00:

It is remarkable how much long-term advantage you can have by trying to be consistently not stupid instead of very intelligent.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you. Lovely quote, and beautifully unpacked and explained before you reincorporated it. Lovely. Uh, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given, obviously, by somebody else, do you think?

SPEAKER_00:

The best piece of life that I've ever been given. Advice. You know, it it it's advice that I keep needing to remind myself of, which is, you know, hard now means easy later. And it's something that I constantly forget and have to keep coming back to. Um, because one of the things about always being distracted and being a little ADD or a lot ADD is that, you know, that you put a great value on the now. And so I want to make the now easy and I want to do what I want now, forgetting that if I make the now a little more difficult and do something I might not want to do now, the future will be much, you know, brighter and easier.

SPEAKER_03:

It plays into no pain, no gain as well, although that's a slightly different construct, but similar.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Yes, a little it's a little more an extreme version of it and frames it as pain because I you know, I think the the cool thing is a lot of times you find that what is hard or what seems like it's gonna be painful turns out to be not hard and not painful.

SPEAKER_03:

And made your life better for it, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, which which is kind of like brings us back to the first thing I talked about, which is the whole Eastern thing of we create a we we create reality, right? We create the idea that it's gonna be hard or it's gonna be um painful.

SPEAKER_03:

Which which reminds me also of that beautiful quote from Hamlet Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Yes, well said. Well said, Will. Will he knew his onions, he really did. William Shakespeare.

SPEAKER_00:

I love the way you English have all these little like expressions that are just a little bit different from us. It's almost like there's this country, and it's like it's it's a country and it's just like America, except and you think that it is, but then you go there and it's like everything is a little bit different. The names of stores are a little bit different, the gas stations have different kinds of names, and then people say things a little bit differently. And of course the gas stations are called petrol stations and not petrol stations, right? And the car has a trunk valories and you know um next question.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh, with the gift of hindsight, you've been you've spent the last four decades making sure companies get copy. Um, what uh with the gift of hindsight, what notes, help, or advice might you proffer to a younger version of yourself, David L. Deutsch?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I would say that the things that you think don't the things that you think don't matter, things that you think matter now won't matter years from now. And some of the things that you think matter that you think don't matter will matter years from now. You know, whether that's taking care of your health or whether that's you know uh doing what you want to do or you know, going out on a limb in some way. Um you know, I I I think that you know, as you get older you realize the finiteness of life. You know, it's very hard to realize that when you're 20. Um so I I think it's that really. It's you know, don't be so sure that what matters matters. Don't be so sure that what you think doesn't matter doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03:

I love the sort of double, triple negative positive in that. That's great. Really nice.

SPEAKER_00:

And also invest in Microsoft and NVIDIA and you know, all of other country companies, please.

SPEAKER_03:

We we all wish we had, or maybe some of you have. Who knows? We're ramping up to talk about Shakespeare finally, but just before we get there, this is something called Pass the Golden Baton, please. Um, another English expression, they don't like it out by Mr. Man Ring, which is a quote from a TV programme which you probably don't know called Dad's Army, so that could be a stupid reference. But who would you most like to pass the golden baton along to now you've experienced this from within, in order to keep the golden thread of the storytelling going?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I think you should have on. There's a designer and marketing strategist, Lori Haller. Um, we've worked together on projects. We work for some of the same clients. Um, she comes from the design end of things. So she takes um, you know, she is able to use the visual aspect brilliantly to get people to stay on the page, to read, um, and uh just has a very nice way of speaking about design, speaking about the customer journey, speaking about a lot of things that go well beyond, you know, copywriting.

SPEAKER_03:

Lori Haller, you said, is that right? Yes. Thank you so much for that wonderful gift of a golden. Uh and now, um, just before we get on to the Shakespeare, which we'll we'll come onto at the end, I'm not going to deliberately segue the bit in now, which is show us your QR code, please. So the first one is if we want to join you on LinkedIn, this is the most obvious one to go down, first of all. Uh, so that's uh that one there. Our lovely assistant uh Courtney is now showing up a QR code. So this is um copywriter, copy coach, game changer. Scan the QR code. But if you want to say anything about where you are on LinkedIn, David, and that will point the audience to it. Uh, you mean what is my LinkedIn address? No, just you just what can we find out about you on LinkedIn? And you may well be watching us on LinkedIn in any case, but in which case you're there already. But if someone's just listening but not able to QR code, what can they discover about David L. Deutsch on LinkedIn?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, well, there's a lot of posts about copywriting and about thinking and about creativity. Um, a lot of posts that people seem to like about books to read, um, that copywriters should read, or people that want to write persuasive sales copies should read, that don't have to do ostensibly with copy.

SPEAKER_02:

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00:

Because I think that's how you become a much better copywriter is learning about persuasion or learning about well, how to are how to lawyers argue cases, right? One of my favorite books is by Jerry Spence. Um, and it's about how to win case how he wins cases in court. And in a way, that's what we do. We we are arguing, we are trying to prove things beyond a shadow of a doubt. We are trying to convince a jury of our peers to buy something.

SPEAKER_03:

Lovely. And speaking of writing, that was a deliberate segue. Uh, the next so talking about speaking of writing, just talk us through this QR code. This is the second show. Is your QR code, please?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, speaking of writing is is my website where you can get some free stuff about copywriting and about uh coming up with ideas. Uh, you can contact me there. You can find out about the products that I offer, which is one of them is about generating ideas, one of them is about uh copywriting, A-list copywriting secrets, idea powers, one about generating ideas. And both those things you can get free, both those trainings you can get free if you join my group coaching. Um and uh that's the way, or you can get individual coaching and uh yeah, so just perfect.

SPEAKER_03:

And copywriting from A to Z is one of your publications, as is the A-list copywriting secrets. And forgive me if I'm repeating something you've just said, but that's where you can get a whole archive of your previous writings and music.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, A-list copywriting secrets is um is the training. Ah uh the copywriting from A to Z is a free report you can get at that site, as is how to come up with ideas, I think is the other the other free report that's offered there.

SPEAKER_03:

Lovely. Thank you uh indeed, Courtney, for flashing up the QR code. And now uh back to Shakespeare. Um borrow from Shakespeare's all the world to stage and all the men and women merely players to talk about the seven ages of man. When all is said and done, David L. Deutsch, how would you most like to be remembered?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think just I did some good, I helped some people, I helped some people with their lives, with their businesses, um, and you know, elicited response in one way or another, whether that was for people buying things or for people getting interested in things or inspiring people to discover things for themselves, read books they wouldn't have read, think thoughts they wouldn't have thought, you know, otherwise.

SPEAKER_02:

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00:

Probably not as the billion-dollar copywriter, but you know.

SPEAKER_03:

But that's a nice um sort of It's a nice appellation, yeah. Nice appellation to have. Thank you. I was fishing for the word appellation. I thought I'd help you now. Yeah, that was perfect timing. Wonderful. It was going so well until I just sort of reached the age of my personality and couldn't speak anymore. Thank you very much. Um, as this has been your moment in the sunshine in the good listening to show stories of distinction and genius, is there anything else else you'd like to say, David L. Deutsch?

SPEAKER_00:

No, as a mentor of mine once said after an interview, I think when he was asked the same question, I think I've already said much more than I know.

SPEAKER_03:

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00:

Um but I I've always liked that. No, I would just say, you know, just you know, stop thinking of, you know being a writer, stop thinking of writing and just think about how you would talk to people, how you would persuade people, um, how you would, you know, face to face what you would say about something. Um, just find your inner writer. Don't write from ideas that you have. A lot of times people's writing is the echo of everything that they've heard before. And we we've somehow managed to go through this whole thing and not even mention AI, but AI compounds that, right? AI is an amalgamation of everything that has kind of gone before. And it doesn't have that ability to sit in front of someone and talk to someone, or envision what it would be like to sit in front of someone and talk to someone and see their reactions and and and and hear their objections and just intuitively know, oh, this is going to create resistance, or this is gonna lower resistance. So, you know, find that in yourself and write from there.

SPEAKER_03:

Lovely final comment. And I actually really love the fact we haven't necessarily mentioned all things AI. This is about being human, warm, and connecting, which is the whole raison d'etre of what the good listening to show continues to be up to, actually. Um if I might may just make a couple of announcements before before we go. Um I've got a t-shirt which uh has a wonderful uh statement, What's Your Story on it? And this is very, very exciting because I'm just about next week, as I record today, to be exhibiting at an exhibition in England, Entrepreneurs Convention, part of the Entrepreneur Circle, and I'm on an exhibition stand talking about a very exciting series strand to the Good Listening to show, which is called Legacy Life Reflections, which is to record your story or the story of somebody really precious to you for posterity. And very interestingly, in the backstory, the story behind the story, my own father, Colin Grimes, has become a very enigmatic mascot for Legacy Life Reflections. Five years ago, I recorded my dad as the first ever willing guinea pig for Legacy Life Reflections. I recorded him in the halcyon days of his 80s before he slipped into a crater of declining health, which I now know with the gift of hindsight. My dad, Colin Grimes, died a year ago, uh, but um now I still have the recording that I have of him, both in filmic form and as a podcast in the storytelling platform of The Good Listening2 Show.com. I can't tell you how precious it is. So, yes, Legacy Life Reflections is out there to help you and those that are precious to you too, if you'd like to look it up. So that's legacylifereflections.com. If you've enjoyed the show and you'd like a conversation about guesting too, as we broadcast uh on LinkedIn, across YouTube, Facebook, all usual social media channels, uh, Chris Grimes is me, just get in touch. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn as well. And Courtney may well also be able to flash up that QR code too. So that's a final announcement from me. I've been Chris Grimes. This has been David L. Deutsch, the legendary David L. Deutsch, the billion-dollar copywriter, as you said, but that's not necessarily how you want to be remembered. Uh, and because we had your wonderful answer to legacy and how you'd like to be remembered. So now I've raffled on for a bit. Anything else you'd like to say finally? I'd like you to sort of close the show.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, I think this has been this has been great. Um, I wanted to add, you know, when you were talking about the legacy thing, which I think is such an interesting thing to help people um leave a legacy for other people. But I think also the interesting thing about that is maybe how it helps the people that do it. Because to reflect on one's own life and to realize what I have what one has accomplished, what one has learned, is such a valuable thing. So I would think that would be a great thing to do, even if even if there wasn't something to pass on, just the exercise, as it were, of doing that, just the experience of doing that must be a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_03:

That's very generous feedback. Uh, hence what's your story, meaning what's your story, but also it could be yours, your own personal story, because there's meant to be a catharsis in intention. And, you know, I've been told that what's been curated here, this is just what other people have said. It's an oasis of kindness, and it's like having a day spa for your brain. So it does give people the opportunity to go to places they weren't expecting with the structure that's that the The Good Listening To show is all about. Thank you, David. It's been an absolute delight and a privilege, and I sincerely hope we can meet in person someday. It would be very exciting to overlap when we can be in the same city together. Oh, my pleasure. And I I would love to do that. And I'd I'd I'd love to be in touch to find out what other nudges of help, advice, and wisdom you might proffer towards Legacy Life Reflections, because it's a very exciting new cut and thrust that I'm I'm I'm you know on the lip of making this sort of explode into something much bigger, which is really exciting. Yeah, no, I look forward to that. And also big um mention, of course, to Cassie Quinton, who was one of your uh copywriting disciples, who's been very helpful in not least introducing us, but also thank you, Cassie, for everything that you did in terms of you know giving me some preparation to to make sure that I I did David some service in in how I've described what you're up to, David. So thank you very much indeed. I've been Chris Grimes. That's been David Ildeutch. Thank you very much indeed. Good night. You've been listening to the Good Listening to Show with me, Chris Grimes. If you'd like to be in the show too, or indeed gift an episode to capture the story of someone else with me as your host, then you can find out how. Care of the series strands at the Good ListeningToShow.com website. If you'd like to connect with me on LinkedIn, please do so. And if you'd like to have some coaching with me, care of my personal impact game changer program, then you can contact me and also about the show at chris at secondcurve.uk. On X and Instagram, it's at thatCrisgrimes. Tune in next week for more stories from the clearing. And don't forget to subscribe and review wherever you get your podcasts.