The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

Story of Distinction & Genius: Laughter as a Compass & 'How to be a Stupid' with One of the World's Best Loved Clowns, Angela De Castro - know simply as De Castro - Founder of "The Why Not Institute"

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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Laughter can be a compass. Sitting with DeCastro—one of the world’s best-loved clowns—we step into Why Not Land, a clearing where play is protected, truth has room to breathe, and imagination outruns fear. From South London to Rio’s shoreline, she maps an art form often trivialised, arguing with warmth and precision that clowning is education, rebellion, and radical compassion all at once.

We journey through the founding of the Why Not Institute, born after Slava’s Snowshow and sustained by a fierce belief that clowns are truth tellers, entertainers and subversives. The pandemic cost the Institute its physical home, but not its purpose: keep the archive alive, keep the training accessible, keep the doors open to every line of clowning—circus, theatre, street, musical, spiritual, and rebel. Along the way, DeCastro dismantles the lazy insult that calls selfish power “clowning.” Real clowns risk themselves to say what others cannot, with tenderness and wit.

Her practice is anchored by “How to Be a Stupid,” a title that hides a serious proposition: the work is not technique first; it’s a state. Intensive training helps students unlearn perfectionism and step into a creative intelligence where failure is feedback and play is disciplined. We talk honour, friendship, and compassion; we talk samba beats that change your heartbeat; we talk Giulietta Masina, Wings of Desire, and painters whose generosity outlives them. There are trees with winter scarves, red motorbikes humming low through London, and bus rides where a stranger’s new phone becomes blue because a clown’s kindness tipped the scales.

What remains is a living legacy. Students write years later from rehearsal rooms and boardrooms, now “stupid in charge” of their own brave choices. DeCastro wants the Institute’s next home to be near a tube and open to all, so the archive—props, films, books—can breathe and be shared. Until then, the state of clown keeps migrating: into hearts, spirits and minds that choose curiosity over cleverness and play over posturing.

If this conversation moved you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs permission to take fun seriously. And if you can help the Why Not Institute find a new home, reach out—let’s make the land of Why Not easier to find.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to another episode of the Good Listening to Show. Your life and time is with me, Chris Grimes. The storytelling show that features the clearing. Where all good questions come to get asked, and all good stories come to be told. And all my guests have two things in common. They're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors. A clearing, a tree, a jasty storytelling exercise called finding four three two one. Some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, and a cake. So it's all to play for. So yes, welcome to the Good Listening Two Show, Your Life and Times with me, Chris Grimes. Are you sitting comfortably? Then we shall begin. Boom, we're in. Good afternoon, United Kingdom and broadcasting across the interweb. I'm Chris Grimes, but most importantly, this is Angela DeCastro, who is, I'm delighted to say, this is a Halcyon happy day in the Good Listening 2 show clearing. Angela DeCastro, who henceforth will be known as De Castro by her request, and she'll explain why, is one of the world's best loved clowns. And I couldn't think of a better conceit than to bring in the happy, sprite-like energy of DeCastro to the clearing. And what a joy to have a clown rummaging around the construct of the clearing the tree, etc. that I'll lay out shortly. So, um, Angela DeCastro, thanks for being here. I'm thrilled to have you. How's morale? What's your story of the day, please?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I'm very happy to be here. That's a wonderful invitation. So thank you so much. And hello from London to everyone. South London, here we are.

SPEAKER_01:

South London, big shout out for South London. Lovely. You're from Brazil originally, but we'll get on to that, I know, because we're going to talk about a bit of a life trajectory in a January. I've been aware of you most of my I'm not trying to age us both, but I feel all of my career I've known you because I trained initially at the Central School of Screech and Trauma as a drama teacher back in the day. And I had posters of you and Nola Ray, actually, in my digs where I was staying. And then I've seen Slaver's Snow Show, and I know that you were very formative in crafting that entire show. I love Gifford's Circus. I know we're going to talk about, or I hope we're going to talk about that too. I've also had Tweedy the Clown take two traverses through the clearing. So I'm delighted to have you here.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, thank you so much. It's very sweet of you to know you have my picture on your wall. Me and Nola with my very good friends.

SPEAKER_01:

So wonderful. So yes, the the Why Not Institute, you very beautifully say that you are the clown in charge.

SPEAKER_00:

And right. Yeah, the Why Not is um organization I created when I just uh left uh is no show. At that time, uh, we brought the profile of Crowning was very high. And um I left the show and I wanted to take the opportunity of the profile to have a place that would belong to clowns only. And so that's when the why not was born, it was 25 years ago. And I think 1999.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, and congratulations are still going strong. In researching you, I saw that you were looking for a new home, but whether you stayed in the same home, did you succeed? On your website is we need a new home. Have you found a new home?

SPEAKER_00:

We're still looking for it. We've been fortunate to be resident in many places. Yes, but during the pandemic, we lost our place, not just us, but all the residents on Stratford Circus Art Center in East London. There was a problem, and they lose the building. And with not only the charity, but all the residents. So we were homeless. There is even a little video about us looking for places. And there was in the middle of the pandemic, and uh so far we have a few offers, but it wasn't suitable. I'm somebody that I'm very careful about to have a place that is suitable but also is easy access to everyone. Yes, so it's close to a tube, it's close to so people can go easily. Yes, right? So the places I've been offered as either very expensive or very far away, yeah, or the access was limited.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So far, I didn't get it, and it would be lovely to have a place because through the years I have a huge archive, I collect an huge archive in Crowning, and also being given there was a clown that um uh she retired and she gave all her props, all her stuff. So all the library I have and the video library, DVD images, all that. So I would like to share that. There's no point to have that in boxes or on my own shelves in my house.

SPEAKER_01:

So everything you have is in your house at the moment, so you're no longer in the old home that you had and you're looking for a new home still.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, no. It is um unfortunate. So if there is somebody out there that would like to give a home for the institute for the why not, please get in touch.

SPEAKER_01:

And if if this program enables that, I'd be absolutely thrilled. By you traversing through my clearing in the good listening tissue, I'd be delighted if that ended up being a home for you as well. That would be great. That'll be and I think the really wonderful thing to position about the Why Not Institute is that your your statement of intent, your purpose imperative, we believe in the vital roles of clowns as truth tellers, entertainers, subversives, and communicators in the arts, in society, and across the world. And you are a lost, well, you're a vaudevillian art is a lost art now. And I love the fact that you remind me, and this is a total compliment of Oliver Hardy, because I love Laurel and Hardy, and I'm delighted that I can see some Laurel and Hardy figurines behind you as well.

SPEAKER_00:

I believe in that. I believe that we are educators, that sometimes we think that clowns are always funny, or yeah, that's part of it. We are entertainers, but we're also educators, and we also like a newspaper, and we also don't know, uh, see things out of the box. What then we become subversives in a way, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

And of course, the the the the legacy in the history of that in Shakespearean times was, of course, the fool to King Lear, the one person that can that can, I suppose, have the ear of the king, but actually be there with a sheep's bladder to sort of slap his head and keep him in line. And so the vaudevillian is a is a really beautiful historic art, and you know, you're still trailblazing and always working on clown personas, I know, whenever you're in your free time. And you've got the we'll talk about the clown summer school, you've got it coming up soon in June as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's right. Um, oh, you said so many things that deserves a bit of a chat. Yeah, but well, the summer schools coming up. I want to say something about it about what you said before, because the the why not and the way that I see clowning is that we are inclusive. So there are many lines of clowning, and very recently the the whole art form has broadened. And so I actually ask people to broaden your mind, you know, in terms of what the lines of clowning.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So at the moment, there is the theater clown, the circus clowns, the street clowns, the children's entertaining clowns, the musical clowns, but we have the clown rebels, the clown army, the clown priests, the spiritual clowning, and uh so that the rebel clowning. So we go everywhere.

SPEAKER_01:

And yesterday I know we had a quick conversation about how you felt it was an insult when we talk about political clowns as well.

SPEAKER_00:

And of course, there is a political clown or political clowning, yes, and that is valid because the clowns always say the truth. Yes, and you have a voice to say what's going on. But when you call certain politicians clowns, then it's an offense. I feel offended. Don't call a politician that is not the best of ones, that only do weird things, that only see to themselves. Don't call them clowns, because that's offense. The real clowns, the ones that put their lives on the line, uh their lives on the line, you know, to be clowning. Yes. So that's an offense.

SPEAKER_01:

And during the pandemic, just to share with you a quote that I loved, I I was reading a really dark book about the cartel, but then there was a beautiful quote about the nature of comedy and clowning. We have to laugh because as we know, the first evidence of freedom is laughter. So even in real adversity, the I the art of clowning, the art of being able to see light in dark and to call out truth. I mean, I I love the imperative of the Why Not Institute, and I we are going to do a very exciting bit which is called the show as your QR code moment at the end, where we're going to point people to all the philosophy that you talk about in terms of the art of clowning.

SPEAKER_00:

It is amazing. Is I don't know any art form that can offer such a huge spectrum of possibilities, a freedom that you can't find in any other art form. If you can embrace clowning properly, if it's not just about to do comedy, comedy is just part of it. Yes. There is more to it. You know, there is more to it. It's just is very nice, and is you make sometimes people uh do clowning in an instant way. They are instant clowns, they can say a good joke, right? And that is great because you make people laugh on that instant. But how long is that gonna last? How much is the impact or the effect is gonna last on that particular person? You see, even if five minutes is worth it. Yes, but sometimes we can go a bit more profound, and you can go in a lighter way. It doesn't need it to be in an angry way or in an aggressive way, I mean.

SPEAKER_01:

And what I so enjoy when you first joined me here on Restream where we're broadcasting, you said I always I was saying how lovely you look in your shirt and tie. And can you just remind us why you said it's a lovely statement as to why you love to turn up in your shirt and tie?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's every time I have to actually present myself to either give a talk or go somewhere that's public or live, like we are now. I feel that people sometimes they might expect that I come in dress up as a circus clown or very extravagant or with any any t-shirt, with uh a kind of that will do fashion. But I respect the art form, and that is a way to say, look, let's seriously talk about clowning. Yeah, let's take fun seriously, and uh and therefore I like to present myself in a more maybe formal way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, you know, that is a way that I I can show show a bit of respect to it, to present myself in a way I feel that is respect because respect because, as we've both agreed, it's an art form and it's a necessary part of society's equation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and for people to take it seriously, I have to take it seriously.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, and you've dedicated your whole life to it, I know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, my whole life doing it. You know, every time I go and do these, sometimes very big talks and um speak and stuff, I always either go in a suit or I go somewhere that's a kind of uh Sunday best. Yes, because people do expect that is too big or too loud or too you know, and I I'm not too accurate. I'm really not too accurate.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's get you on the open road of the structure of the Good Listening to show. If you've not seen this show before, where have you been? We're about 250 episodes into these monkeys, but it's a show in which I invite movers, makers, shakers, mavericks, influencers, and also personal heroes. You'll see how you fit right in there, De Castro, as we all come to share your stories of distinction and genius. So you're more than qualified to be here. I'm thrilled to have you here. So let's get you on the open road. What is, where is, a clearing or serious, happy place for you, DeCastro? Where do you go to get clutterfree, inspirational, and able to think?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I have a few places, right? I try to people say that I'm short on height, but I'm not short on words, so I always have to wait. So professionally, my happy place is the why not lunch. It's a place where everything's possible, is where when you get into the state of crown, and from there everything changes. So that's one place. And just say it again, it's the why not the why not lunch. Lunch. Uh-huh. Lunch. Lunch territory.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh oh, the sorry, I'm being it's called the good listening to show. There's ironic. So you're talking about the why not land. Get that. Land, yes. I heard lunch first of all.

SPEAKER_00:

My accent, okay. You guys there listening to it, you might have a bit of a problem to adjust your ear to this Brazilian accent.

SPEAKER_01:

Which is beautiful, I have to say.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. So, the why not land is a place that you go when you are free, you know, it's absolute free. So you go into your imagination or you put yourself into it. The other place I really in heaven is when I'm performing, when I'm on the stage. That is a very happy place. I've been a performer for over 50 years, and I never been nervous. Every time I come into the state, I celebrate the privilege to be doing what I love doing. So I don't get nervous, I celebrate. So that is a beautiful place to be for me. That's a very happy place.

SPEAKER_01:

Beautiful combined clearing of performing in Why Not Land.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there is one more place, which is personally my personal place is to go to the beach. If I am on the beach, but it needs to be in Brazil. It can't be the beaches in the UK. Quite right. They are very beautiful, but they are not a beach to actually go and swim and stuff, right? So to be on the beach in Brazil, my favorite beach in Brazil is called Arpuador, which is closer to Ipanema Beach, which is very famous, close to Copacabana Beach, but is a part of the beach that's very small and has the best sunset that you can get. So it's a beautiful place, and that's my beautiful, beautiful place personally.

SPEAKER_01:

Love that, that's beautiful. So we've got a really wonderful, I suppose, trilogy of places, but they could all combine with you actually performing in Why Not Land on the beach in Brazil, if you like.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that would be perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

So now I'm gonna arrive, and you'll enjoy this because it's deliberately becketty, a bit waiting for Gotto-esque. I'm now gonna arrive with your tree in your clearing, and I'm gonna shake your tree to Castro to see how your storytelling apples fall out. And this is where you've been kind enough to have prepared your answers to a lovely juicy storytelling exercise called 54321, which is the metaphor of how'd you like these apples falling out of your tree? So, first of all, it's not a memory test, but I'm gonna curate you through it. Four things that have shaped you, three things that inspire you, two things that never fail to grab your attention, which I'll talk about as we get there, and then the one is a quirky or unusual fact about you, DeCastro, we couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us. So over to you to interpret the shaking of the canopy of your Samuel Becketty tree as you see fit.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. So honor, love, friendships, and compassion. That shapes me. Honor is very important to honor myself, to honor the work I do, to honor my colleagues, to honor the art form. Honor. Honor is very important for me. Friendships are very important, love is very important, and compassion to be able to see the other and uh to sit together, even if you can't do anything. You can sit together, you can understand. If you can understand, sometimes all you can do is to understand. So that shapes me pretty much. Sometimes people say I'm quite tough, but I'm not tough, I have discipline, that's all.

SPEAKER_01:

Compassion and kindness is the golden thread through everything you've just articulated so beautifully.

SPEAKER_00:

You have to be able to see the other. Because sometimes people don't see the other. They say they see, but they look, but they don't see. You have to see, and you have to hear yourself as well, no? And the other is very important that it is fundamental and is lacking. We are lacking the compassion out there, I think, politicians especially.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm deliberately not interrupting you because this is just beautiful. So now, thank you, for that's the most perfect for shapages. Thank you. Now we're on to three things that inspire you, DeCastro.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I have lots of things that inspire me. I can't believe that to three people, uh to three things. My kids inspire me. I have two kids, and they inspired me. They are the most precious things I have the pleasure to be with, to be inspired by. So that is a big, big exercise. Yes, they inspire me immensely, immensely.

SPEAKER_01:

And what's so perfect is children remind us to look through the world through childlike eyes, which of course is what a clown is able to do so perfectly as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, absolutely. And as they get older, because now my kids are not kids, they are young adults, and how they perceive the moment we are living, how they perceive what's happened, things about uh maybe politics or or about love, about education, about day-by-day things, about uh difficulties they encounter. How do they deal with that? It's so different, it's so fresh. There are different points of views. And therefore, for me to keep working, I have to keep myself young. I keep myself contemporary, so I have to see what's going on and to adapt, and sometimes very difficult. And uh so it's hard, and at the same time, is inspiring. I'm not dated, I'm old, but I'm still with it. You know, I still have my motorbike and everything.

SPEAKER_01:

So I I hoped you're gonna talk about your motorbike because whenever you have time away, you're on your motorbike, I'm gathering.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I have the most beautiful motorbike. The other thing that uh inspire me are the cliches, right? Because they are certain songs and the lyrics of that song, or sometimes just the music itself, that elates me or transports me. And the same when I see good shows. I saw a show recently, not recently, it was in January. There was amazing was a show called Demanche by a Belgian-French company. Two companies working together, which was great. One was drowning and physical theater, the other one is a puppetry and illusionism, and they got together to do the show, and that was mind-blowing. And then I feel oh. I in the end, I went to talk with these performers to thank you them for doing something that I would like to be doing. Thank you for doing it, at least somebody's doing it. And it was amazing, it was an amazing show. So that inspires when I see good shows. Oh, that is amazing. That is a gift.

SPEAKER_01:

And may I ask, is there any piece of music that's just occurred in you saying you love music? Because my podcast editor, Dan, is brilliant at texturing through music.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I like I like a lot of Brazilian music because the poetry and the rhythm is very good. So there is one that is from a composer called Milton Nascimento, called Canção da América. It's called in Portuguese. Uh, it's American song, but nothing to do with America, but um it's called Canção d'America. That is an amazing, amazing song. The other one's called Travestia from the same same composer. I also like I forgot the name of the composer, but is Return of the Angels, it's called. Pattern of the Angels. Return. Return of the Angels. Return of the Angels. And that is a song that is no words, no lyrics, but is a song that when you listen. So inspires me. Is very is like if you're being embraced by wings by something kind, and that is makes my soul sing. It's very good songs. So there is amazing songs, but I could keep talking about songs here you know all the time. And the Brazilian songs are really special to me. I grew up with them. There are the same schools, there are the sambas, the Brazilian sambas, which is different than the Jamaicans or the other cultures. It is amazing. It uh it goes on your heart when you hear the beat.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, so what a great expression. It goes on your heart when you hear the beat.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it does because you see, when uh I was young, when there was a kid, like five years old, from my five to my 15 years old, I lived close to a samba school. In Rio, there are different samba schools. They call schools, but it's just samba centers, and they are all by Islam or by uh poor neighborhoods. And I live close to one, and so when this starts in April, do you know, March, April, they start rehearsing for the parade, the carnival parade in February of the other year. And so therefore, I go to sleep for 10 years. I went to sleep with tum tum chutum ch tum chutum chatum. And then it stays with you, isn't it? Makes your heart beat in a different way.

SPEAKER_01:

I was gonna ask if you go to the doctor and then listen to your heartbeat, whether it's actually giving us a samba rhythm.

SPEAKER_00:

When my first kid was born, I have a full blast samba going on. So they are to always beat you with the summer.

SPEAKER_01:

That's so lovely to listen to you chuckle about that as well.

SPEAKER_00:

I also have this is important because I have films that I keep watching over and over again because they inspire me all the same, all the time. And sometimes I even put back the same scene because I want to study the scene. I want to study how that performer could do that. So I have to say that the word of Fellini, the work of Giulietta Massina in Knights of Cabilia from Fellini, it is a class, it's a master class. So her work is superb. So that inspires me. And then there is the German Wings of Desire, a black and white film, that again tells a story that it goes beyond. And uh I keep watching that, I watch again, I watch one more time, sometimes just part of it. So it is inspiring, and um, I have to put a shout here for a film, a Brazilian film called I'm Still Here, that uh was recent and got the Golden Globe and all that. It's a very important film because it talks about the times of the dictatorship in Brazil, which I lived in it, is my generation. It's poetic the way they tell this story, because they say from the point of view of a family, and not it doesn't show any torture and doesn't comment so uh graphically what's happened at the time, but what was the effect on the family that lost the father, the family that lost the husband, that disappeared during the dictatorship. And um it's a very poetic film, it's a very strong film, very deep, and the way that was filmed. was also this director, Valter Salis, he was magical the way he did and how much he honored each decade because the film goes through few decades and how he honored in all aspects. From the music, from the way that he filmed, he filmed in celluloid, not digital. And everybody involved is uh it's an amazing film. Anyway, here's my shout. If you haven't seen it, go and see it.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00:

It represents a lot of people and especially on the time that we are living. And for generations that you don't know what to be in a dictatorship means. People have short memory. So I think it's interesting to see what's happened. And especially on this time that we are now that thinks uh looks like people have a very short memory. I'm still here we go there we go and the other thing that inspires me that is more is the work of the painter Chagall and Picasso and Marguerite and Henoir and Van Gogh and Trace Reming so what inspiring to go and and see that and to be in the presence of such a work of art and uh these people are so generous really because theater is ephemeris but a film a song that recorded a work of art paintings are there all the time you can access it all the time the theater performing it stays in people's memories right if you're good enough and if it touch touch you enough but these work amazing I can go on and on Betty don't have it out there either.

SPEAKER_01:

Beautiful answers and if I may I'm gonna move on now to talk about the what are your two squirrels this is borrowed from the film Up I don't know if you've seen the film Up but you know where the dog goes oh squirrels so this is uh what are your two squirrels or monsters comedy prop uh squirrel my family think I'm insane for having comedy props but here you go so what are your two monsters of distraction two things squirrels that never fail to stop you in your tracks irrespective of anything else that might be going on for you in your wonderful life what are your two shiny objects or your squirrels well well trees I like trees I love trees I'm so happy you love trees me too I love trees I love trees in whole seasons of the year I used uh the other house I I live there was a very small tree the only tree on the whole street and there was just outside my my window and was a very small tree very thin so fragile that tree never died was always there never grew always stayed the same and when got the winter I used to put uh I'll say this um sharp um in a scuff because I felt so sorry she felt so fragile do not talk to her etc so I really like trees and that's something that takes my attention when I'm driving when I'm uh walking around and suddenly I see that particular tree one or another and uh what I found amazing is when we are just on the transition from the winter to the spring and we see all the how to say the branches without the leaves yet see and they look like embroidery god I always want to know what they're talking to each other you know if they okay you know and uh such a generous thing trees it's so generous I went to a place near Ipswich some time ago weeks ago that they have on their uh land two trees that were together and then entine oh god what a wonderful thing to see and I done a show my own show called My Life is like a yo yo which is about how much I travel and how much touring I do and how much places I visit how many stories to say and how tiring that is as well so I finished the show saying that on my next life I want to be a tree because it just stays there and doesn't go anywhere I want to be a tree.

SPEAKER_00:

My next life I want to be a tree. And if someone comes and wraps a scarf around you that's a perfect it might be maybe we can have a dog that has a wheel or somebody that uh don't know throws some food in there or throw up or but we might have somebody that uh might carve a heart on it or might a swing or might go to the shade or you know it's a tree is generous generous the trees are very very generous we should look after our trees no I can completely agree and you're allowed a second squirrel now and I love the fact that I have a yeah I have two more actually I have cars and motorbikes I love and I have motorbikes so that is something that I stop to see I comment if I can with the driver so I like that. You mentioned already you have a wonderful motorbike what is it that uh I have a Honda Rebel which is a customized bike very low because I'm as I said I'm not that old yeah so I love it. I love I keep saying I'm old but I'm still with it is a very nice bike it's red and I have a red helmet to go with it so and does all of London know when DeCastro is on her bike it sounds iconic if they can see me because it's very low very low. So the other thing I really like important saying is that I like to see people I like to observe people on the street. Traffic light and they're passive I notice how people are walking I start making stories about them or I notice what they're wearing or how they're walking if they carry something if it's heavy what it is I love that I'm fascinated by that and to see people that are invisible you know I make sure I see people that nobody sees right like the delivery people the cashiers the beggars the drunks the drivers people think I'm crazy but I make sure if I spot one I make sure I say hello I ask how they are if they okay how long they working or stuff like that. But I love people and I love people on the street.

SPEAKER_01:

But what I love in going full circle to you loving Oliver Hardy is did you know that Oliver Hardy grew up in a Texas hotel which belonged to his parents and he would just people watch and observe and that would be where he would bank characters.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's so I think that if you say for me I say that we clowns we represent humanity right my work is all about human nature if your work is about human you have to observe people you can't be abstract and also it's free people just out there. People watching is free are you know how many times I take a bus I don't have to go anywhere but I take a bus just to be able to chat with somebody on on my side or to see how people are doing or what's happening. I don't like the tube but I like the bus.

SPEAKER_01:

I collect my material with observing I'd love to be on the same bus as you that's fantastic it's great it's great there was once that I was this woman by my side was talking on the phone trying to buy a new phone she didn't need a new phone but she fell into somebody selling her a new phone and was a lot of things like which kind of phone you do want what does this or that or whatever and she kept the put the woman hold to call her mother to ask the mother opinion about something come back and that was a long time that was from Brixton to London Bridge and then I said a certain point this whole thing was about the colour of the telephone and she called a friend and she called her mother and she called and at certain point I said just to get the blue one get the blue one lucky you were there because the choice was made perfect and now uh we're going to talk finally about the one which is a quirky or unusual fact about you de Castro that we couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us I am not scared to fall in love.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not scared of it.

SPEAKER_01:

But I'm also very shy so if you out there wants to give me a pass you have to be very clear about it because I'm very shy and sometimes I don't get it that's the most perfect answer to the quirky or unusual fact in all of the circa X number of hundreds of episodes that's a perfect answer. I love that is it we have shaken your tree de Castro hurrah now I feel all shaken. And now we stay in the clearing which is your wonderful uh performing in why not land on the Brazilian beach but you're performing and it's perfect and you're you've done it because you've people observed and you've created your characters from the work way in which you've observed the world and now we're going to talk about alchemy and gold so when you're at purpose and in flow what are you absolutely happiest doing in what you're here to reveal to the world to be in the beach in Brazil I adore to to swim to to surf to cut the wave and when were you last there oh about four years ago three years ago so there is a return coming I can miss it of course I love clowning and I love to I'm happy to talk about it I'm on my element if I am on the beach and talking about clowning and going to the beach on my motorbike I'm in heaven I'm absolutely heaven I'm in heaven uh there is something else I also I also happy teaching I didn't set up to be a teacher at all I don't even like to call myself a teacher I prefer to call myself a performer that knows a lot of stuff and want to pass on.

SPEAKER_00:

You know I don't I like the saying like this I like helping people to put their acts together to direct to to help them to access what they want to do with clarity and uh so I love doing that. I have a lot of fun doing that. And I know your signature globally renowned program is how to be a stupid that's right yeah how to be a stupid was uh I start it all happens because after I've done a lot of training with a lot of masters to know which lasts till kind of night one more or less at that period I done quite a lot of training and work with um in a company that had lots of very good crowns as well and so I learned a lot observe a lot for quite a few years and then I want to keep learning to keep learning and keep researching and still very thirsty about it. And my first crown teacher called Frankie Anderson she asked me to be her assistant and she said want you to assist me but um you have to run two classes a week because she didn't live in London anymore and I said I can't I'm not prepared I mean I don't have the capacity to to teach crowning I mean just starting myself you know I know you can do you can do and so I started doing something very simple to to please her and because I'm so grateful to her as well now so and then I understood how much we learn when you run classes. Yes how much you learn is so rich. And then after that period I was called to run a class in a place called Royal Holloway New College a university in Eggham which is just outside London. Again I said how can I do that but I saw okay let's put together what I know so far and what is important to me what was it that makes me understand I always been very disciplined in making notes and uh what I like what I didn't like how difficult that was or whatever and then I started taking what was important to me what helped me and I make a list and I start and that's how the how to be stupid started you know it started as a two hours two days a week for 10 weeks that's how it started and then after that started happening of people calling and I started running more workshops just two days a week in between my touring and the work I was doing and um started doing started developing the thoughts about it and what is it that really helped me what is about you see and um also taking from my notes what I liked not what I didn't like. I'm not gonna repeat everybody's uh or the teacher's processes there are things I like and there are things I don't like so I just took what I liked and I just took what helped me. And I totally understand how how to be a stupid therefore becomes a life quest of all the wisdom you keep evolving and sharing and it's a portal through which yeah it starts as a two days yeah and then becomes three and then becomes five then becomes six then becomes a lifetime yeah it's a lifetime now because you have how to be a little bit of a stupid how to be a stupid how to be even more stupid and how and then there is the I work and research I'm doing the clowns intelligence and then the use of crowning tragedies and then crowning for actors clowning for writers and then the pleasure of playing so that is I start separating the the modules because on the beginning I wanted to give to the people everything I knew but there's as much people can take you know so I start kind of compartmentalizing dividing this is about this this is about that and then who wants to keep doing keep coming and keep doing it.

SPEAKER_01:

And the only title that's missing is for politicians which is how to be completely stupid. Hurrah that was only a title that was missing there.

SPEAKER_00:

No but that is the thing there is a little letter on this title that is very important how to be a stupid not how to be stupid yes how to be a particularly stupid so that a gives a quality to this stupidity yeah it's uh it becomes for me a very important 10 days 90 hours 90 hours a day with a two days in between two blocks of five days and becomes very important to me because it is a concept or it is a work that can be used by anyone not just performers yes for performers brilliant for the ones to be clowns brilliant but also for whoever do know is about your creative self so is about the state of clown for me clowning my way of clowning what I believe and what I follow clowning is not a technique this most important thing about clowning is not the technique is the state of clown how do you get there how do you can put yourself in such a state you can call this state state of inspiration state of creativity I'm on something you call whatever you like but it's a state that you allow yourself to go to and from there everything's possible you are then on the land of why not and this state is difficult to get because our lives we are educated to be clever to be important that you can't fail that you can't be a loser there is a lot of obligations that society and depending on the education we have are put up on you and therefore you forget the pressure that there is in living that you have to embrace failing as a way of learning you know and uh and so on is part of life we learn with what what happened you know nobody's a loser that isn't such a thing for me and and not for crowning say and so therefore for you to change the way you think for you to uh download say or upload a different kind of intelligence yes for you to change the mechanism of your thoughts you need to be intensive you need to be nine hours a day go go go go go go because if you do an hour a week or if you do a half a day you come back to your life you come back to the way that you you live normally yes you see so that's why it needs to be so intensive is intensive is challenging but a lot of fun as well you know I don't yeah so that's the that's my how to be a stupid and uh and then the techniques comes with how to be very more stupid.

SPEAKER_01:

And we are going to be doing a section called Show Is Your QR code shortly where we're gonna point people to the forthcoming soon to be happening at clown school that's happening in London. Oh then let me put my post up not just yet because we're gonna do a cake now so this is the section where I'm gonna award you with a cake hurrah. So do you like cake da Castro?

SPEAKER_00:

That's the question well sorry to disappoint but I'm not that fond of cakes I like creamy caramel fine a cream caramel sticky pudding will be yours.

SPEAKER_01:

I like milfouille that's what I like milfouille I love that yes so cream caramel ah so a cream a creme caramel shall be yours and now you get to put a cherry on that creme caramel stroke cake with stuff like now what's a favorite inspirational quote that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future ah I I prepared that because I want to be there is one it is both quotes have two and they are from Einstein they are from Albert Einstein one is creativity is intelligence having fun boom love that creativity beauties say it again it's there creativity is intelligence having fun the other one is also from Istanbul which causes sometimes a lot a lot of polemic which is imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited to all you know and understand while the imagination embraces the entire world and all there ever will be to know and to understand so for me ultimate perfect quotes thank you so much I love inventors inventors they are on the land of why not because they keep asking why not why not can I have a paper to go to the toilet why not and then they make it they think they think imagine Einstein thinking with his buttons to know uh about the theory of relativity and how many times he failed and and then he got it and they changed the whole perspective you have about the world lovely quotes perfect with the gift of hindsight what notes help or advice might you proffer to a younger version of DeCastro I thought about very hard about that one I think I would say to my young self you can and I would say you are beautiful as you are dot beautiful perfect we're ramping up shortly to talk about Shakespeare borrowed from the seven ages of mad speech all the worlds are steed and all the better women Millie players but just before we get there this is the pass the golden baton moment please now you've experienced this show from within who do you think you'd most like to pass the golden baton along to in order to keep the golden thread of storytelling going you could pass to my very good friend Kevin Brooking.

SPEAKER_00:

It is a clown who is the director of the Clowers in Belgium he is a superb clown superb. And say his name one more time his name is Kevin Brooking.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so your mission should you choose to accept it is to furnish me with a warm introduction to Kevin Brooking. Thank you very much indeed that's a wonderful gift and high praise indeed that you've called him a perfect clown when indeed you are one yourself. So that's wonderful thank you for that very rich golden baton pass. So now inspired by Shakespeare and all the world's stage and all the better wibbered merely players could I invite you to Castro now to talk about legacy and how when all is said and done you would most like to be remembered right I think my legacy will be in people's I hope no I hope that will be in people's hearts spirits and in mind in their mind is not tangible it's not like a book or a film is the change that I made in few people's lives and work to what I discovered about clowning about the state of clown and the language that I've been blessed to be given that makes it accessible that makes it easy for people to understand.

SPEAKER_00:

So the language I developed to be able to pass on the clowning many people have been through my workshops through the years I've been running a very long time many times and in many countries all over yeah the legacy is the effect that you're having many people that pass through through the work through the how to be a stupid there's been 25 years of the why not I started running the workshops before that so it's been over 30 years that my process of drowning my my process to create what they call now a methodology but I never wanted to have a methodology no I just want to keep to keep going right to keep researching and there were things that still amazes me because people pass through these 10 days sometimes they do more than 10 days they do the other modules as well and I never see these people again sometimes the other day I had Facebook message from a student from in Berlin she done the course in Berlin in 2004 and she suddenly said oh DeCastro I've been thinking about you I just want to say that your work is fundamental for me. I'm now a director of a theater here in Berlin blah blah blah and I do this and that is amazing. It is you know I don't often hear what happened to people you know so also there are uh funny things that happen with that place in Eggham for example that university the first one I taught that I work that I keep meeting people from their class so there was Dan Relato a writer that wrote a character in a show for me and then there is uh Lindsay Poole that was at the arts council for a very long time and I keep meeting these people and then you know there is uh I met recently Julie that is the CEO of Sodish Town Hall and then I met um somebody in um Wolving that is a seaside sort here in the UK that is the CEO of Ward City at the museum and I don't remember them do I no and then I meet them I go oh my god I'm gonna talk with the CEO arrive there they say I've been a student I was on the hallway so there is this there are people that um change their lives and all these people become stupid in charge as you say you are the stupid in charge of the why not in they become in charge yeah so there are people that go to Books and they changed left their jobs, you know, to to kind of follow what they want to follow and do shows. And we have Jamie Cashman Wilson that just wrote a beautiful book called Be Brave. So we have Em Stout doing her shows as well and stuff. There's a lot of people, and that's my legacy. They leave on people.

SPEAKER_01:

Lovely, lovely. And I'm sure that legacy is utterly secure. So we're now going to do these showers. Your QR code, please. So Joe, my lovely assistant in the adjacent room, is now going to show the QR codes. So uh first of all, this is if you'd like to find out all about the Why Not Institute, here is a QR code. Can you just tell us what the uh website is for the Why Not Institute, Angela? TheYNot Institute.com. And there's a QR code if you're watching this too. Lovely jubly, go to the Wynot Institute. And the forthcoming workshops that are happening are, this is where you show us the cards, please.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, my card. Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_01:

Is Summer Clown School How to Be A Stupid. And there's several, there's art of there are several courses happening, but the all courses coming up in June are going to be care of the Wynaught Institute.

SPEAKER_00:

It's from the 2nd to the 20th of June in London, South London. It's a lovely venue. It's very nice. The how to be a stupid has one place left. Ah scarcity.

SPEAKER_01:

That's great.

SPEAKER_00:

And the other courses still have places because they can take more people. I work with a very small group of people. I don't work with 20 people. Perfect. With 10, 12 maximum.

SPEAKER_01:

And then the next QR code, sorry to interrupt you, is if you'd like to connect with um DeCastro on LinkedIn, then there's a QR code for that too. I'm sure you're not on LinkedIn very much, but it when you maybe you are.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I'm uh I'm very much on the Instagram.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And the why not is on Instagram as well, on Facebook as well. I don't do very well the what's the name of that thing? LinkedIn. TikTok down here.

SPEAKER_01:

No, TikTok, none of that.

SPEAKER_00:

We don't do very well. But I want to say that the why not is not only about courses. Do why not workshops? The why not is a community. We do a lot of stuff that is not to do with courses. We help each other. We have the why not cafe sometimes. Uh we make films. I'm now being invited to run residencies. Also, I want to create a uh a crown choir for Christmas. So this is all coming. I'm trying to do some short courses as well, not only me, because you see, I'm one line of crowning. Kevin, for example, is another line. Susie Ferguson does Crown Doctors. So, you know, so there are different lines. So I always try to bring other people to run workshops. So, and then what's happened is that we become a massive group that keeps helping each other. Yes. So it's only about courses. Yes, I understand. That's what I want to say.

SPEAKER_01:

As this has been your moment in the sunshine in the Good Listening to show stories of distinction and genius, is there anything else you'd like to say, DeCastro?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, thank you. I want to say thank you for inviting me. And uh I hope everybody's okay wherever you are, and uh you know, is um I'm old, but I'm still with it. I think that as old you get, as more you understand. And clowning needs to have experience, you have to have life experience to be able to tell the stories, to tell more stories. And one thing that I learned about um about getting older is that, or to be old as I am now, is to is that you are not so worried about so many other things. You just say what you have to say. You know, you just do what you have to do without being concerned about being cool or not cool, you know, what's cool anyway, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

What's cool anyway? Wonderful. So thank you so much for saying yes in the first place. It's been an absolute delight to having your wonderful energy take a turn through the good listening to show, Stories of Distinction and Genius Clearing. If you'd like to have a conversation, if you've been listening or watching, the website for the show is the goodlistening to show.com. If you'd like to connect with me on LinkedIn, you can also do that too. That's one of the main platforms in which we have been uh broadcasting. And then very, very excitingly, there's also a series strand to my show which has been within the mountainscape of the Good Listening to show anyway, but it's called Legacy Life Reflections, which is to record either your story or the story of somebody near dear or precious to you for posterity without any morbid intention, but lest we forget before it's too late, and that's legacylifereflections.com. He uses the same storytelling structure that I've just uh had the privilege of taking De Castro through. So is there anything else else you'd like to say, De Castro?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I want to say thank you for your technician, who's very kind. You know, we have to acknowledge the people we don't see using it. So thank you. Thank you to Joe and Phil Joe.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, and she's Joe, and she's gorgeous and very on the case and and is just uh great to have there in the background.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so thank you, Joe, and thank you, you Chris, for inviting me to give me this opportunity to leave my legacy on the code.

SPEAKER_01:

It's been a delight and a privilege, and I it's everything I hoped it would be. So de Castro, thank you so much for, as I said, gracing us with your wonderful sprite-like well, your your clownic how to be a wonderful, profoundly awesome, beautiful, stupid human. Yeah, and I'm very proud of it. You should be. So thank you very much for listening. I've been Chris Grimes, but very importantly, that's DeCastro. Good night. Bye guys. You've been listening to the Good Listening to Show with me, Chris Grimes. If you'd like to be in the show too, or indeed gift an episode to capture the story of someone else with me as your host, then you can find out how. Care of the series strands, the goodlistening to show.com website. And one of these series strands is called Legacy Life Reflections. If you've been thinking about how to go about recording your life story or the life story of somebody close to you for posterity, but in a really interesting, effortless, and creative way, then maybe the good listening to show can help. Using the unique structure of the show, I'll be your host as together we take a trip down memory lane to record the 54321 of either your or their life story. And then you can decide whether you go public or private with your episode. Get in touch if you'd like to find out more. Tune in next week for more stories from The Clearing. And don't forget to subscribe and review wherever you get your podcasts.