The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

Legacy Life Reflections: Scouse Wit and Wisdom & Iconic Ear Worms (like the Royal Family's Favourite 'Lily the Pink') in the Company of renowned Cultural Storyteller, Musician & Photographer, Mike McCartney

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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Mike McCartney opens the door to his extraordinary life with warmth, humor, and profound insight in this captivating conversation. The renowned photographer, musician, and cultural storyteller shares intimate tales of growing up in post-war Liverpool, revealing how losing his mother at age twelve pushed him toward creativity as both salvation and expression.

With classic Liverpudlian wit, Mike recounts discovering photography through a failed attempt to capture "giant seagulls" with the family box camera, leading to a self-taught journey that would eventually see his work acquired by the National Portrait Gallery. Parallel to this, we hear the origin story of The Scaffold and their hit "Thank You Very Much," which became an unexpected royal favorite (though the Queen Mother might have misheard a Liverpool FC reference as a tribute to herself).

Between laughter and occasional moments of raw emotion, Mike illuminates the cultural revolution of the 1960s, describing how art confronted class divisions and opened minds. His stories meander through chance encounters with figures like Marlon Brando, Salvador Dalí's surrealist influence, and pivotal moments that altered his trajectory—including breaking his arm, which led to his brother Paul taking over his drum kit.

The conversation deepens as Mike reflects on legacy, suggesting that bringing joy to others through creative work may be our most meaningful contribution. His philosophy emerges: seek what you love, embrace serendipity, and never underestimate the power of gentle subversion—like hiding anti-war sentiment in a cheerful pop song that reached number four in the charts.

Discover the remarkable story behind the man who documented a generation while helping shape its soundtrack. Mike's upcoming limited edition photography book "Mike McCartney's Early Liverpool" and the Scaffold box set releasing in April promise to further preserve this vital cultural legacy.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, chris Grimes, the storytelling show that features the Clearing, where all good questions come to get asked and all good stories come to be told, and where all my guests have two things in common they're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors a clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare and a cake. So it's all to play for. So, yes, welcome to the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me. Chris Grimes, are you sitting comfortably? Then we shall begin. Welcome to Aardman Cinema.

Speaker 2:

Ladies and gentlemen of Bristol, this is the last event of the Slapstick Festival here in Bristol. It's been happening majestically all weekend. Last night Ben Elton got a Comedy Legend Award, woohoo, and it's my absolute pleasure, privilege and delight to welcome forward the wonderful Mike McCartney, who is my very, very, very special guest. Allow me to help you down the stairs. Very, very special guest. Allow me to help you down the stairs. Always lovely to hold your hands with the guests as you come down. Lovely, he's only acting. He's not this decrepit at all you have. There you go, take a seat all right how you doing.

Speaker 2:

Take a seat, mike. How lovely to see you, that's a traditional welcome from a Scouser.

Speaker 2:

All right, all right, and one thing I've tuned in Is that Lily the Pink up there, my daughter Lily, is up there. I thought so Not so much. Well, lily was my mother's second name. Norma Lily is my mother's, so Norma Lily, which is why that. But I do have to sincerely thank you for Lily the Pink Just before. If I may blow some happy smoke at you sincerely, if you'll pardon that particular expression, is this a drug show? It's not a drug show. It could be. It depends how well we get on in the next hour. Marvellous If I can just blow a bit of happy smoke at you. I, if I can just blow a bit of happy smoke at you. I have you to sincerely thank for planting two earworms that have lasted my entire life. What are they? Lily the Pink? First of all, I was seven years old and living in Uganda. I was born in 62. I appreciate that. Lily the Pink and the scaffold. Were you born in Uganda? No, I was born in Middlesbrough as you're asking.

Speaker 2:

Near enough for Uganda. My dad was a teacher for the British Council and we went to live in Uganda and I was there between my being two and a half and ten. Okay, anyway, lily the Pink, my mum and dad were running something called the Nile Players Theatre on the banks of the Nile. And, lily the Pink, we all learnt it and I was seven years old.

Speaker 2:

This had been, this would have been 1969 is this eddie amin's reign yes, we were there for nine months of the eddie amin regime I saw an extraordinary french film of him, right is?

Speaker 3:

they filmed it from the end of the swimming pool. And so he's there with his couple of his army lads, yeah, and they're ready to go in the pool, swim the length. And Eddie is going to say, right, go ready, steady. And he jumps in immediately before everyone else, big lad, and he's doing this and he's swimming along like that and there's one coming up nearly and he goes like that and he goes down, he plunges him down, he plunges him down, plunges him down, and then the other one tries to come up and then he takes him down as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And he gets to the end and he stands up and he says I won.

Speaker 2:

He did, and then he called himself the King of Scotland in the film that was made about it for his life, if you remember oh, really no, it's about nine months of his regime. Then we left, oh good, but thank you for remembering that. You remembered your history, and what I really want to talk to you about is you've ridden the wave of a cultural. You've been on the crest of a wave of culture all my life in terms of the references I'm going to give you. But I just want to tell you the story. Lily the pig happened and we were all bouncing up and down, as I think john john gorman would be doing anyway in the scaffold, as you know, but I very, very sincerely, accidentally- got out of time.

Speaker 3:

As we're talking up and down, we'll drink.

Speaker 2:

He always got out of time and it was an accident because I was only seven and I didn't know, but I got my first ever laugh on stage, thanks to you.

Speaker 2:

And then the other and then the other thing is I wanted to say to you thank you very much for being my guest, mike, thank you very much. Thank you very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very much. And may I just ask you from the get-go I've heard on good authority that you are very good friends with princess margaret and the royal family. Not very good friends, I just mean you, you knew her quite well, but the royal family I'm very good friends, I just mean you knew her quite well, but the royal family.

Speaker 3:

I'm good friends with everyone, Chris, Particularly all the Chrises in Bristol. This bloody place is full of Christophers. I've heard it's after St Christopher. You're all named after St Christopher because you're all saints. Yes, Unbelievable how many.

Speaker 2:

Chrises Hands up. If you're called Chris, look here the whole audience. We've just done a Chris test and there are three here, absolutely, but there's only one, mike. So Mike McCartney became Mike McGeer. He did Became Mike McCartney again. Yes, he did. I'd love to hear that. We all know the journey of that, but I'd like to hear it.

Speaker 3:

But I just wanted to ask you about, um, the royal family really loving that song. Thank you very much. Yes, they don't know. I'll tell you what. It wasn't princess margaret, I think princess margaret, uh, I think it was her velvet thing. Well, that she said to me in a royal lineup somewhere after a show. And so they're all coming along, there's Princess Margaret and she says I had a big velvet kipper tie and my then wife made it. It was a big black velvet kipper tie, you know, big booger. And so she said, and she touched it. She said that's a lovely tie. I touched it and so I said, oh, you've got a lovely. And she had a velvet top on as well and I said that's a lovely velvet.

Speaker 2:

I made a royal boob. You touched the royal boob to compliment her velveteen loveliness. That's how I remember the royal, and what I heard was that they loved the song thank you very much and they then would sing it.

Speaker 3:

It was actually the Queen Mother. I only found this out when I went to. I was photographing the top of Scotland and I had a book out called Mike McCartney's North Highlands and so I'd done a dueness, I'd done a sort of range, an army range, and I got to the Castle of May and it is controlled by these army majors, jolly decent chaps. One of them said it's lovely to have you, would you like some tea and tiffin? And I said oh, it's lovely, thanks a lot. And he said Michael, I just have to tell you that. Do you know that? Your record, thank you very much. And I said I wrote that. They said oh, did you Jolly good? But Her Majesty the Queen Mother, your record, thank you very much. I said I wrote that. They said oh, did you jolly good? But her majesty the queen mother.

Speaker 3:

It was a particular favorite of the queen mother and later on he took me up to the room where they sang it, the dining room, lovely chairs. I remember the chairs with hearts in the back, beautiful carved chairs of, of course it's the royals, they've got money. So he showed me where this happened and they would have whatever, they would have dinner, whatever, and the Queen Mother particularly liked your song. Thank you Very Much. Thank you very much for the entry. And he sang it. I said, oh good, thank you. That's lovely to hear he said, but there was one particular moment in the song that she insisted on. Everybody stopped. I said, oh, what bit. So he said it went. Thank you very much for the Aintree Eye. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Cease for our gracious queen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:

Cease, yes, cease for our gracious queen. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, cease, yes.

Speaker 3:

Cease for our gracious queen. Thank you very, very, very much. And that was where she insisted. I didn't have the heart to tell him.

Speaker 2:

Yes, here we go.

Speaker 3:

The actual words were thank you very much for our gracious team, liverpool FC, liverpool FC, come on. So I did a book and the north ireland's book, yeah, and I put the story in and sent it to him.

Speaker 2:

Yes, the mayor, the major and doing your books, of course, is all about you being a cultural storyteller through your love of photography. You're about to republish, with a very limited release 2 000 copies only of your your your liverpool book is that my early liverpool? Yes, it's a fly here that the audience can leave with.

Speaker 3:

If only we had a copy of that. That would be nice, wouldn't it? If there's anybody here that you know has a copy. Oh, two people in the audience.

Speaker 2:

And there's only going to be 2,000 published globally, aren't there it costs?

Speaker 3:

a bloody fortune. That's why I bought this thing. This is called Mike McCartney's Early Liverpool and it's just photos that I took. I was in love with photography. I came about by trying to take some giant photographs. I had no idea what photography was called. What is you know like? Our kid had no idea what music was called. We were two little Liverpool lads. Our mother had just died, and so we're going nowhere and we didn't.

Speaker 3:

And so there were things like photography, and there's these two bloody, this enormous seagulls they were giant seagulls flying over our little two up, two down house called fourth in road, which the national trust has now bought. Couldn't make this up, could I? And so there they were, these enormous big birds, and so they only. I'm not allowed to, but I got the family box camera out, went outside and click and waited for another one to come down, click and dying to get them back from the chemist Back in the day. Yes, oh, yeah. And so eventually they came back from the chemists Back in the day. Yes, oh, yeah. And so eventually they came back from the chemists and they're leafing through. Stupid chemists have given me the wrong film, because where's me? Albatross seagulls, where are they? Oh, hold on. There's Auntie Millie, there's me dad, there's our kid. Oh sorry, from now on, if I ever say our kid, it's Liverpool slang for my brother or sister, right? So I had one brother called our kid and they were all on this thingy, on the thing, but no giant albatross, seagulls.

Speaker 3:

And I suddenly saw a little dot in the middle of the print, and so I realized there's more to photography than meets the eye. Yes, zoom is the thing you're thinking of, isn't it? Well, I didn't know. I had no word. Where do you go? So I got on the 86 bus, went up to allerton library, got all the books out on photography and learned photography. Our kid was in one room learning music. I was in the other room learning photography, and I did. That was my studio. I had to wait for it to get dark for my dark room. I had to go dark outside or else you'd see it.

Speaker 2:

so I had to wait for the dark so your dark room was the outside world waiting for had to go dark outside or else you'd see it. So I had to wait for the dark. So your dark room was the outside world waiting for it to go dark? Yes, I think.

Speaker 3:

And then, when it went dark, I could develop and print all my own stuff. Yes, and it's quite interesting From a little lad that knew nothing about photography, but he learned and this is where it's interesting, for any young people can learn that all it did, all it took, was me to study the books of how to take photographs and then, in the end, the National Portrait Gallery of Great Britain bought 11 of my. You're supposed to give them, but they bought 11 of my photographs. And there's this little scruffy Liverpool lad learning photography, and he did it so well that those images were from that era, were bought by the National Portrait Gallery.

Speaker 2:

And we're going to get on. You're already beginning to go into the wonderful seismic depth of your life trajectory and, if I may, I'm going to curate you through the structure of the show now to get you to go deeper where you like, how you like, when you like. Yeah, so there's going to be a clearing a tree, five, four, three, two, one which is a storytelling exercise. There's going to be some alchemy, some gold, a couple of random squirrels, a golden golden baton, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare and a cake. So it's all to play for and round of applause, and this is what we're going to do. I'm really intrigued by when you said do you remember? A few moments ago? You said I wanted to get the box camera out but I wasn't allowed to. I know there was an inferred austerity within your family because you weren't able to pick up a musical instrument you or your brother, and well, you couldn't afford to take photographs was the last on the list of important, uh, things for survival.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know what I mean. We're going to get there now. So, um, first of all, let me just ask you a clearing is your serious happy place? So, mike mccartney, mike mcgear, where would you say you're serious in your life? Where's your serious happy place been? Where do you always go to get clutter-free, inspirational and able to think my God, in my mind that's where I go. So it's intrinsically, the happy space is just whatever's going on between your ears at the time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's. And then it's the things that influence you. That's where you slowly it unfolds of life and you see things on the telly. When you're a young lad and you suddenly see something on the telly, that is insane. And that's what I love about the Slapstick Festival. Here is this thing that who the hell is going to be interested in silent movies today, of all days, when all this is going on? There are so many people interested in that and it's like but things that change your mind, like they in those days were.

Speaker 3:

I'm watching the black and white telly. We couldn't afford anything else. So we're watching the black and white telly and suddenly there's this thing called a program on a bloke called Salvador Dali, from somewhere in Spain or somewhere, and Louis Bunuel, this filmmaker and you're watching the telly, little lad feet on the floor. When we went into Forth Inn Road there was holes in the carpet, where the previous owner told us, and there were holes in the chairs where the spring stuck out and the aunties had to put folders on them to protect you from the. And there's the holes in the floor. I said to the owner that took over Portland Road. I said were there holes? I know what? The color of your floor is. It was brown paint, wasn't it? He said, how do you know? It's carpet now posh carpet, I said because we wore a hole in the thing you brought in the deli.

Speaker 3:

But there, on this little black and white box set, came a thing, a program, a Louis Bunuel film. And there is this man. He's following his wife across Spain, across wherever in Madrid or somewhere, and he's following her because he's convinced she's having an affair with someone and he's sweating. It's a hot day and he knows his wife is being unfaithful to him and he follows her to a church. She goes in the church and he's waiting. This should be a meeting of men, it'll be that he's sweating and he goes into the church and she sits down quietly and is praying and he's thinking oh my God, it was all in my mind. So he sits down behind her and then suddenly these choir boys go through and follow in the priest and it's all very sedate, very straight, everything is straight, very serious. The priest, and it's all very sedate very straight, everything is straight.

Speaker 3:

Very serious. The boys. And then suddenly the little choir boys, all dressed beautifully. They suddenly go and back to him and that was it. It was like whoa, oh boy, oh, is he now? Is she having an affair? Is he going insane? No explanation, it was up to your mind. Where you go, where your happy place is, and that was my happy place. It was like, uh, bloody hell, this is normal life. Yeah, only is it.

Speaker 2:

So it's the power of disruption. Whenever it happens, something just disrupts the moment, the current moment, and there's something else interesting a door to go through, a sliding door, moment thank you that.

Speaker 3:

That was what it was a door to go through. So I went up, uh, got out the door upstairs to my bedroom because my mother died. We would never have been allowed to do this, and your mum died when you were 12, anyway, 12, when.

Speaker 3:

I was 12. And oh, shouldn't have said that. Whenever I think about it, this is good for your telly. I always call my wife things about blubbering idiots. Oh, when you're 12. No, forget it, you know. So I went upstairs and because she'd got them there, I got me drawing bits out. I wanted to go to art college, got them out and drew around the night the light switch and I, that was the the light switch of. Uh, you know, you went into the depths of the eye, you go and click that did another eye, did a face around that, and then at the top of his head was a mushroom going out of the wall, no, going up over the door head was a mushroom Going out of the wall, no, going up over the door, it was a giant one.

Speaker 3:

I'd never heard of magic mushrooms then. And so there it was, for a young, like 14-year-old kid or something like that. Suddenly you are introduced into a new world, a new dimension of openness. That's why the 60s were very important for the opening of the attack on society. Everyone had accepted there was a thing called upper class and lower class, and it didn't fit well with me. I just didn't believe it. I just thought that just because they got a posh accent, uh, it doesn't mean the nice people dad loved, because he was brought up the old days and his bosses were all very posh and they talked correctly Oxford accents, and so even later on in life he would say that he's posh, he must be important. I said Dad, I've met a lot of those people in London and sometimes they've got lovely voices but they're not particularly nice people. And he wouldn't hear it.

Speaker 2:

He would not hear it. He was seduced by posh and class in a way Totally overtaken by.

Speaker 3:

That was his time in life, yeah, so they were the ones that were important. They had the money.

Speaker 2:

And it's the power of imagination to help you come to terms with the death of your mum is what I was hearing in that as well.

Speaker 3:

Oh, don't I. I'm just a blubbering wreck.

Speaker 2:

I know your mum was a midwife and a community nurse, and you also. When I was listening to you with Adam Hills yesterday, I heard the wonderful story of how Carrie Mulligan chased your brother once because she wanted to say thank you because your mum had delivered her dad.

Speaker 3:

Her dad.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

Into this world.

Speaker 2:

This idea of six degrees of separation, and just small steps away it's lovely him being a speaker Liverpool lad yeah, scouser. And then instruments came into your life and you were a drummer initially my dad bought me a banjo, yeah, and our kid a guitar, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Initially only because mum had passed away, because she wouldn't have allowed it in the house.

Speaker 2:

That's what I meant about the austerity thing. So it wasn't that she was banning instruments, but it wasn't sort of part of your family fabric until after the sad demise of your mum.

Speaker 3:

No, well, dad, always because he was in a band in the 20s is in a band called jim max band. Yeah, uh, so he always had a hankering. It was a way out of poverty. You know, there you are, you've got no chance. It was the class system. Yeah, that was the one that was so bestial, so unfair, uh, but he was part of it and he was on the bottom part of it and he was brought up in Everton that's why he's an Evertonian but he was brought up in Everton when it was the poorest district in Europe.

Speaker 3:

And so how do you get out of that? He tried gambling. He didn't win, so he stopped that soon. You could thieve, you could go into people's houses and take their stuff, but they put you in prison for that. So then he thought of he played piano and a trumpet, cornet, he played and piano. And so then he got his relatives and friends around and formed Jim Mack's band to get a bit of extra pocket money. He was a cotton salesman, so he got a bit of extra pocket money. Yeah, he's a cotton salesman, so he got a bit of extra pocket money by doing a band. So he's always had this tinkering for for the other life, that thing that he, you know. He, like our kid, got the same tinkering but went into this extraordinary outer world. Yes, my dad must have been so thinking to himself if Jim Max Band had these opportunities, then the whole thing would have been different. It would have been, we would have been in the posh hours. Yes, it wasn't to be. And particularly mum would have said Jim, get a job, a proper job.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Do your music on your side. That's why she wouldn't have allowed the banjo or the piano, particularly not a set of drums. Yes, my God, but they fell off the back of a lorry, as we say in Liverpool. We know what you mean, yep. And they just off the back of a lorry, as we say in Liverpool. We know what you mean, yep. And they just entered the home. I was playing them. One of the quarry men in Bristol told me here I did a show once and it was called Sex, drugs, rock and Roll. I wish that's what it was called. And one of the quarry men came to see me here in Bristol, yeah, wanted to say hello to you. So hello, great. He said oh, they were great days, weren't they Mike? I said oh, in Fortland, yeah, yeah, smashing. He said yeah, when he used the drum for us, I said pardon.

Speaker 3:

He used the drum for us when we were the quarrymen. John, when the quarrymen came along and you were the drummer, I'd forgotten, and then I know that you broke your arm at a very pivotal time in your life and do you think that changed your destiny in terms of sliding doors?

Speaker 3:

Oh in your life and do you think that changed your destiny? In terms of sliding doors, I can assure you. Well, the trouble was I broke it, you won't believe, unbelievably helped by my brother who was trying to stop me, uh, going into this oak tree.

Speaker 3:

I was on a pulley system, scouts in the school, scouts, and it was a zip wire or something on the zip wire and I was hanging on to the yeah, a tube going down to collect wood. It was, and I was. Each time we went down I had the idea, yeah, of getting on to go down then wind the wood up, but it's going a bit fast and to help me, protect me, stop his younger brother smashing into the oak tree. He pulled on it. So I went into the oak tree 100 miles an hour and broke my humerus, which wasn't very dumb, but when I got out of the hospital it was the Arthur Jackson Ward in the Royal Sheffield Hospital, where my daughter is a nurse now.

Speaker 3:

Okay, and life is weird, and it was a month on my own in Sheffield and we didn't have a car, so anybody coming to see me I'd be down. Dad would come over on the train to see his little son. First of all, they took the Arthur. It was like this the Arthur Ziegharding Superman, yeah, superman, I was supermanning, and it was a trolley system. But when they put it down, broke, open the cast, suddenly there was that hand going. It was dead. And so it the nerves had gone.

Speaker 3:

Yes, and so that's why ringer got the job. Wow, dead, couldn't, couldn't do anything with it and in fact when I got home our kid had, like my dad in his jim maxx band, had stuck a label on his drum kit saying Jim Maxx band. When I got home after Sheffield I found that my brother was rather good on the drums. He'd been practicing and if you ever listen to Band on the Run then you'll see how proficient he got on my drum kit. But there on the drum kit on the bass drum it says his group and it says B-E-A-T-L-E-S. Yes, and we never knew about dad's photograph taken in the 20s yes, lovely, what you're doing beautifully.

Speaker 2:

We're in the structure already of four things that have shaped you, where I've just explained, where we're at two, three things that inspire you. You're giving me this anyway. We're also going to get into two things that never fail to grab your attention. So, just before we go there, where would you in anything else you want to say about what shaped you on the path or the journey that you've been on?

Speaker 3:

I think the people that shaped me are my parents, very, very important. Then, as you've heard, then Liverpool itself, it is quite a unique place. You will say Bristol, because that's all you know. That's where your foundation and your inspiration came from. Mine was Liverpool and its people. Those people are just extraordinary. They are unique people. They're so quick. You know, we're cursed with this terrible thing called a sense of humor and it's with us all our lives. We can't stop it.

Speaker 4:

Yes, as you found out here trying to talk to me, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And I always think on the bright side of life. Yes, I always think of a joke to make you happy. Yes, that's all I want. We'll get to the end of what make at the end of your life.

Speaker 2:

When we talk about legacy, yes, absolutely, and indeed you got your British Empire medal for services for the community of Merseyside.

Speaker 3:

He's got that bloody. Adam Hills has got a posher one. What have you got, Adam?

Speaker 2:

I've got an MBE.

Speaker 3:

Adam's got an MBE.

Speaker 2:

So you've got the downgraded version.

Speaker 3:

But that's you being a cultural storyteller, because you're so much part of the fabric of liverpool for that in I gotta be very honest much as, uh, the queen mother loved me and much as the queen came to liverpool she's lovely. My son, josh mccartney, who's here today, is my producer of my podcast, first one of which is with Adam Hills here. I've done one with Mike Palin and I've done one with Adam, and then we're going to do more and Josh is my producer.

Speaker 2:

It's going to be called Drinker, Drinker, Drink, which comes from the circle of the scaffold.

Speaker 3:

That's right. I only know about it.

Speaker 2:

That's a secret. Oh sorry, i's not called that, or it could be.

Speaker 3:

No, it is. It is Because we're going to do that this week he's going to. You've given me a world exclusive accidentally. You've just got a world exclusive. Thank you very much. Where does that come from? Drinker, drinker, drinker. From Lily the Pink Lily, you're on again.

Speaker 2:

Who else, would you say, has shaped you? So let's go for three things that have shaped you. You're giving me four things that inspire.

Speaker 3:

Shaped things Well, first of all, as I said, my parents and Liverpool and its people. They are just unique. So they have shaped me. Yes, Very much so Things that have stopped me have made me.

Speaker 2:

That's the squirrels Two things that never fail to Squirrels. Never fail to grab your attention, irrespective of anything else that's going on in your wonderfully eclectic life.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, but one of those I suddenly think. Right, you said that. I suddenly thought, what the hell? I don't know? And then I suddenly thought, hold on, it actually happened to me when we were going out to the Guggenheim exhibition in New York, as you would, and we'd been to see a Claes Oldenburg exhibition and he had a wonderful drum kit that looked as though Keith Mooney had got on it and it was all squash drum material. It was lovely. So we'd see him upstairs Going out of the Guggenheim. There was a little room there with a black and white photograph in it and I thought, hold on Scaffold, just have a little look in here, because that looks a nice interesting. That looks like Francis Bacon, and it was. It was Francis Bacon on Primrose Hill by a photographer I'd never heard of, called Bill Brand, right, and so I went in and there, another person that changed my life was the French one, that French guy, his photography as well. Do you know any French photographers? Any French photographers? The one he's mentioning? Press on, it's press on.

Speaker 3:

Thank you Press on and these people change your life. And how can photography change your life when you look at these things? He has seen something that you would die to have seen, and these people's expertise.

Speaker 2:

And was it a picture of a drum kit that drew you in? So drum kits are what those girls did.

Speaker 3:

No, no, the drum kit was upstairs. It wasn't a drum kit, it was a Claes Oldenburg sculpture made out of material, and it looked as though Keith Moon had bashed it to death. Yes, and that was upstairs. Yeah, so this one, was this just just black and white photographs? Yeah, and so that's where you just go in. And another change in your life, yes, another progress in terms of introducing you to a really interesting photographer. And there were. He'd taken photographs of rooms. I read later about him. He loved rooms, bare rooms, nothing in them, yeah, and then they weren't selling very well. Empty rooms, I wonder why? Yeah, no, but then he thought if I put bare ladies in them and they might sell. And they did.

Speaker 2:

What a surprise. Yes, the world never changes.

Speaker 3:

So he was an inspiration because of his bare rooms obviously obviously yes.

Speaker 2:

And now can we have a quirkier, unusual fact about you that we couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us, and that will give us the the ending of the shaking of your tree oh, I see unusual, but why that?

Speaker 3:

nobody knows, nobody knows. I've got two brains. I keep one in a box by the bed and I use that for intelligence purposes. I just put that on when I need to be articulate. Yeah, I'm sorry I've got this one on today. It's sorry you just got you know, but I'm going, I'll tell you what. I'll go home, get the one at the box and put it on and bring it back down and then you get a really intelligent, non-blubbering, articulate, uh speech and an interview the last three days I have to thank you again.

Speaker 2:

I've spent time just in your company and I I've heard before it said everybody loves Mike Mack and I've just been watching how people do respond to you in the last three days of being at the Slapstick Festival. I'm really struck with the fact that everyone loves you, however you're being.

Speaker 3:

You mean they're all mad, we're all mad. No, the reality is we are all mad.

Speaker 2:

That is very true and that's all I identify with mad people if we're in the right place, because aardman is deliciously mad, it's brilliantly bonkers and in the world, and, as I say, historically great, too bad, too bad. Yes, let's talk about that where day in history right now? Oh it's, it's so deserved. The night after.

Speaker 3:

Apparently Spielberg got them over to California somewhere and they tried to work in there. They tried, and you know sorry, the genius of Aardman is here. Bristol and your sense of humor, the lovely little things they've got into Auburn that I just just just watching, and then suddenly they just do these little, oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

If anyone's listening beyond today's day, this is the day the night after BAFTA. They've just won two BAFTAs for Murder, most Foul.

Speaker 3:

Oh, is it yes, and are they up for an Oscar?

Speaker 2:

I think it's the path towards the Oscars. Everyone's nodding, going yeah, yeah, absolutely Well, they totally deserve it. We've shaken your tree. Now we're moving away from the tree, but we're staying in the clearing, which is that wonderful in your mindscape, open and receptive to new opportunities as they happen moments of your life.

Speaker 3:

You know that clearing you're talking about that round clearing, yeah, you know it's a ufo landing site, don't you?

Speaker 2:

I have been kidnapped many times by a good you know, you know, but what was your spaceship? Like oh, that's a question I wasn't expecting. It was quite spacious, I remember what were they like?

Speaker 3:

what?

Speaker 2:

did. The people were they. They were very friendly they were, mine were too yes, I didn't get any sort of rectal scorching, which is the relief it was quite spacious.

Speaker 3:

I remember what were they like. What were the people? They were very friendly, they were. Mine were too. Yes, I didn't get any sort of rectal scorching, which is the relief. Oh, christopher Walken, that film he did, and he was taken by aliens and he just describes it on camera. Yeah, it's terrifying. Oh, he's such a good actor.

Speaker 2:

That of itself was a squirrel, that whole thing, the question of squirrels asking me a question about what happened when I was kidnapped by aliens. So thank you for that squirrel. That was fantastic.

Speaker 3:

It's okay, mine were nice people as well, and they put me back.

Speaker 2:

We're very happy they did. Otherwise I'd be sitting here talking to myself. I think they put me back, Chris. We'll just hold that moment, Okay. So now we're going to talk about alchemy and gold. So when you've been at purpose and in flow in your wonderful life, what have you been absolutely happiest doing?

Speaker 3:

Happy is called living. Living it's called waking up and I've had health problems. So when you wake up these days, I'm sorry I've got to tell you I'm 81. I know it's pitiful, but when you wake up in the morning and you think, oh God, I've woken up.

Speaker 2:

You told me a story two days ago about how, in your local area, going for a walk, you had a bit of an old person's off. You were trying to excuse yourself for being 81 and then someone came back at you I was a neighbor.

Speaker 3:

I was walking up the road getting exercise. You got to exercise and, uh, so this old neighbor I hadn't seen him for a long time and I said, oh, hello, how are you? I haven't seen you for a bit. No, no, and said I was. He said how are you now? You've had health problems. Only I said, oh yeah, open heart surgery and pacemakers, all that. And I said, mind you, I am 81.

Speaker 2:

And he said, uh, oh, good, fine, I'm 92 get over yourself exactly chris yes, I'm going to award you with a cake now, if I may. So can we just briefly talk about cake? Do you like cake?

Speaker 3:

Mike McCartney, I must admit I have a penchant if that's the word for it for coffee cake. Ooh, sorry, no, with pecans, not walnuts.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for being so specific and never apologise for what type of cake you like. So definitely not walnuts. Thanks for being so specific and never apologize for what type of cake you like. So definitely not walnuts. Pecans this is a cake. Now that you get to put a metaphorical cherry on, you'll see where I'm going. What's the favorite inspirational quote that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future?

Speaker 2:

inspirational quote, my god, it could be something you've written. I learned the word efficacious from you, yes, going back to me being seven years old. I didn't know what the word efficacious meant, but because of the Lily of the Pink, most efficacious.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

I looked it up and learned a new word.

Speaker 3:

I will say the best words and, to sum me up, thank you very much. I promise I'm going to end on saying thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

I promise I'm going to end on saying thank you very much, because that's a gift that's going to keep on giving. Well, what?

Speaker 3:

a nice thing. The songwriters in London were very annoyed when I wrote thank you very much and it came out and I knew I was told that it would be a hit by Paul Samuel Paul, the ex-Yardbird bass player, I think, paul Samuel Smith, who went on to produce Cat Stevens and Carly Simons, et cetera, great producer. He said you've got a hit. I said what do you mean? He said your Thank you Very Much song is going to be a hit. I said, paul, it's only just been released, it's only just getting the airplay now, so how do you mean it's going to?

Speaker 3:

be, a hit. It's certainly not in the charts. He said, no, no, it's going to be a hit. The milkman came this morning, put me bottles down and as he went down the path, he went. Thank you very much. Thank you very, very whistle. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

Not as badly as I did, yeah, and then you suddenly, oh, and that's what I mentioned at the beginning about it being just a profound earworm because, honestly, all my life, uh, and it's just been an earworm that's been ever present, and so it is something to be grateful for, because it just makes you feel happy and optimistic. Oh, thank you very much.

Speaker 3:

That's it. That's the reality. People have asked me what do you On your graves? Oh God.

Speaker 2:

We're coming on to that, okay. So just before we get there, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given, mike McCartney?

Speaker 3:

Just to wake up for one is a good start. And go out into life and do. If you can do something that you love like first, if you like what you're doing, love is even better. Like I love photography I don't know why I still do yeah, but if it didn't make any money at first, yeah, uh. But if you can go out and find uh employment that you like better, that you love it and get paid, yes, that's the cherry on the top and I'm assuming you know that that's called ikigai as well, and a japanese construct.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it is ikigai. Is that center point? How is that ikigai? Now ikigai's a great guy. I think he's fine because he's found his ikigai. And did you know that? That's that center point between what you love, what the world needs, what you can get paid for, boom. And then if you can find that sweet spot, which, I have to say, you, you have done chris, is this a, you know, just a amazing uh science and history, uh lesson that I'm learning?

Speaker 2:

no, no, no, I'm learning from you, I'm learning from a sort of cultural storyteller the shadows. You should do a little yeah we should now inspired by shakespeare we're coming up to the end shortly, but inspired by shakespeare, seven ages of man, all the world's teacher at all the bit of with the billy players. I'd like to ask you to talk about legacy. Now how, when all is said, what did you just say then? What, I'm an actor, darling, I was I was I went off on.

Speaker 3:

I'm terribly sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm terribly sorry, I'm so sorry, carry on.

Speaker 2:

I was actually doing a quote from the Seven Ages of man speech, which is by Jake Weasel, as you like it. Yes, I thought so. And the Seven Ages of man is, you know, all of us who can get past three, score year and ten. We're on to something. So, when all is said and done and you'll forgive me, I'm going to do another theatrical thing now, please how, thank you? Would you most like Mike McCartney to be remembered?

Speaker 3:

People have asked me that and to me it's the idea what have you brought to life is more important. What's your legacy have you brought to life is more important. What's your legacy? And if people remember, thank you very much. And, lily, do you remember? And like my photographs and now coming up, like my podcasts and the photography in books like the uh, my early liverpool, which is a wonderful testament, it's when you open my early liverpool it's like christmas. Yes, you open it and you can't believe what's in it. It is an extraordinary thing.

Speaker 3:

So things like that you've left in life. Yes, that you're proud of. Certain times in your life you've left something, a footprint. Yeah, you've left a footprint. And in terms of a book, in terms of a song, yeah, and the idea that people think of you as the lily the pink and they think of you in happiness, in memories of their childhood. When Ian McCulloch from Echo and the Bonny man is very cool told me that his family used to go out at New Year's Eve singing Lily the Pink, the Pink, the Pink, go out into the street, as all Scousers do, sing Old Lang Syne, and come into singing Lily the Pink again, that is a great joy, is a great honour to have left on the world. If you just remember for those silly songs and, most important, if you brought happiness to people, then that to me is that's my legacy.

Speaker 2:

Just letting that hang there. That's beautiful. One thing I forgot to mention there's something called Pass the Golden Baton. As you've experienced this from within, is there anyone else in your world that you might like to pass the golden baton along to, to experience being given a damn good listening to in this way?

Speaker 3:

to my uh sons. I've got six kids. I've got three girls, not a lily, I've got a lily got three girls and three boys. Yeah, one is here tonight, my eldest boy, josh mccartney, who is anyone that went to slapstick if he saw all the merchandising and this very brochure that he all those things would. All of us stole the t-shirts, all that, that my son designed them. So that is a legacy and a beautiful thing my, my children in life.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think you've given me Josh as a potential next person to interview, which is what I was fishing for, Without a doubt, Without a doubt. So, Josh, I'm coming for you. He's in the audience. I don't normally get to sort of run out of the audience and grab someone straight away, but that's fantastic. Thank you very much. We're going to go to a bit of a Q&A in a couple of seconds. Oh, great, Good, as this has been your moment in the sunshine in the Good Listening 2 show. In the structure I've taken you through is there anything else you'd like to say?

Speaker 2:

I want to get paid, I never get paid and I want to ask you a couple of questions, if I may, about whether your photography eye and way of taking photographs has evolved, because you started with a box set sorry, with a box camera way back when doing your very small seagulls that should have been albatross. So have you evolved in how you take photographs?

Speaker 3:

You learn over the years. You learn how to my printer. At one stage I had to have a printer. He printed all my early stuff. A guy called Terry Cry, a very good printer from Leeds, yorkshire, lad, very abrupt and very, and he said your negatives are lousy, very badly kept. He wasn't sure of saying the odd serious word to me and he said but you've got a good eye and I never forgot that. So you learn how to frame things instinctively. You know that. I can see that gentleman there. I can see how to frame him and that gentleman behind him. That's all I want in the frame and that's all you in the frame. And uh, that's all you just learn slowly. Yes, your, your love wonderful.

Speaker 2:

You've now got the opportunity to ask the lovely mike mccartney some questions and we have a um ask the question block please. It's soft but I can throw it at you. You catch it and ask a. So does anyone have an instinct of a question they might like to ask? Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:

So, as a photographer, do you think the world looks different in black and white and, if so, why?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it does, doesn't it? And in fact it's harder to get an image in black and white because it's got to be truthful, it's got to be strong, but it does make if you do it properly. And this young lad that is here now, these better be good your photographs. A lot rests on this. You know He'll show us all. That's the great thing about these kids they can buy and sell us all. My son is a photographer the youngest one, sonny and you know he's much better than me.

Speaker 2:

Don't tell him, don't show him on this telly and we will mention the two the new publication of the photography book and the scaffold box set coming up in a second, I promise the scaffold box set.

Speaker 3:

We haven't done that at all. Let's do it now.

Speaker 2:

The boss of the company is there esoteric red let me ask you a question do you have a box set coming out?

Speaker 3:

funny, you should say that yeah, but there is a wonderful thing called the scaffold box set coming out in apr. It contains all the Scaffold singles, yep, all of them. Thank you very much. Do you remember Good Bat Nightman? Who could forget Good Bat Nightman? Hold on, and Three Blind Jellyfish and hold on.

Speaker 2:

Easy.

Speaker 3:

You're not getting off that easy. Long, strong Black Pudding.

Speaker 2:

All of them. They were very impressed. They were hushed.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I could hear the hush and all that, including brand new ones that have never before been heard, plus a video, a DVD of Scaffold Live at the Talk of the town lovely, which is a unique memory of us in our prime yeah, roger mcgough, john gorman.

Speaker 3:

I know we've not mentioned that specifically roger mcgough does a poem that I am thinking. I'm watching it again. I went to the bfi. We were asked to go to the BFI for a showing of this scaffold live of the talk of the town. And so we're sitting there and I hadn't seen it. There's this young man called me on the screen the three of us and doing that. There's me sitting down singing a song called Yellow Book, on my own, with just a piano and, unbelievably, I delivered the goods.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, in front of the whole talk of the town. I don't know if you know, talk of the town was at one stage in the 60s and 70s one of the biggest venues. All the greats played it. Yeah, sammy Davis Jr, bob Hope, all the killers in show business played talk of the town. All the killers in show business played talk of the town. And so they were doing, and Roger and John did Chocody Clare's if you just see it for Chocody Clare's, because he does it at its height there. That's a beautiful sketch.

Speaker 3:

And then McGough does in the middle of this show and I'm thinking, oh, I forgot about the poetry. And he comes on, he does a series with Andy Roberts and they do a couple of poems, but one is serious, dead straight, very heavy, and I'm thinking, oh my God, this is bloody cabaret. There's the Beverly sisters sitting up there, et cetera. This is I was just going to go down, bray. This is the Beverly sisters sitting up there, et cetera. This is, how's this going to go down? It got more applause than oh really, so never underestimate the public.

Speaker 2:

And it was a satirical comic trio, of course the Scaffolds. It was pushing its own boundaries of being a bit seminal for its time. It was doing new and different stuff.

Speaker 3:

We were. Yeah, we were satirical, it was based on surrealism and it was a joy. But McGough was a very clever writer. He had absorbed all the great writers of the day At one stage. It was a great time.

Speaker 3:

We were in liverpool and we've been to roger and I went to see bob dylan on the odian cinema, though that long ago, and I'd run my, uh, my brother in london and said you saw dylan last night on the albert hall, didn't you? He said yeah, why? I said what was he like he? Well, the first half was okay, the second half I don't think he knew he was there. Wow, whatever he was taking. So I thought, oh shit, excuse me, oh, shoot, you know we're going to see him. We bought a ticket.

Speaker 3:

Anyway, there we are at the back of the Odeon and there he is on stage with a table like this, just a chair and a table, and the table had a glass of water on and he delivered the goods straight through and it was good. And so we're going down to the Blue Angel afterwards, we've seen the show and, walking in the Blue Angel, they're coming out and there's two poppies. They're mixed race girls, beautiful with scouse accents. So uh, dylan, uh, loved them down in london, the two of the poppies. One of the poppies got hold of my hand going into a nightclub down there called scotches saint james, sorry, what do you say? Youtube, down the tartan wallpaper. And we get there. Call me man, sorry. What did he say? And they're. It takes me across the dance floor. They're on a table with their other sisters. They're beautiful, with a scowl section, and they're.

Speaker 3:

This is Mike here. He's from Liverpool. They're beautiful, with the Scouse accent and there, ra Mellon. This, this, this Mike here. He's from Liverpool. He's an actor like you, and there on the end of my hand was Marlon Brando, well in his prime. Yes, he was smaller than me, that was a shock, but oh no, he was another sliding door, moment of just serendipity, and the door opened and down, you went Well.

Speaker 3:

no, that's what my life has been full of insanity, of sliding doors that take you anywhere and everywhere.

Speaker 2:

Another question for Mike.

Speaker 4:

Were you aware that in 2000 your brother came round Hardman and had a little tour. I was here, yeah, and he picked up a friend's ukulele and tuned it and sang a song and I think it might have been. In my mind it was either I've Just Seen a Face or Lady Madonna. I think it might have been. I've Just Seen a. Face Like Paul. Are there any instruments you want to tune up and give us a little song?

Speaker 3:

I wish I could play an instrument. Ah, can't play an instrument, ah, can't play an instrument. And so I never played Scaffold, didn't play instruments. We always got musicians. There were always session musicians, like on Lily the Pink. I said, who's that? It's not him, it's Lily the Pink. Is that who? I think it is Jack Bruce from Cream Wow Playing bass on Lily the Pink. Yeah, pretty cool, cool.

Speaker 3:

All through life we had session men. And then the great joy, as you'll hear in the scaffold box set. The box set, yes, scaffold box set. You will hear on the on fresh liver, produced by tim rice who, unbelievably, was the can lad, the coffee boy on Lily the Pink, and he produced an album with us called Fresh Liver. But there all the musos are Zoot Money, neil Innes, all beautiful people, ollie Halsall, extraordinary guitarists, etc. All these wonderful musicians. So that album is a joy to listen to because we had to do Session Men.

Speaker 3:

But then I found all these people that I knew and could work with, who had gone beyond session work and got into jazz and blues. So it was the whole level and you're listening to it and I'm about. When they sent the scaffold box there, did I tell you, don, there's a box there and when they sent it to me, I had to listen to it, didn't I Like? I had to listen to that scaffold at the talk of the town and I'm listening to this stuff and I'm thinking, wow, this is quite good, this, this is wow. Is that me? That's very good. Well done, mike, well done.

Speaker 2:

Yes, round of applause to yourself. Fantastic. Is there a third question in the auditorium and can you throw the brick back if you'd be kind?

Speaker 1:

enough to do that. So, mike, there's a lyric, there's a phrase isn't there, and thank you very much. We say thank you very much for the entry. Iron. Okay, and I know that's remained a bit of a mystery, but I wonder will it ever be revealed? Will you ever reveal the, the true meaning of the phrase?

Speaker 3:

first of all, you've got to hear my brother's comment on that. He said Mike, and he helped to tell you the truth on Thank you Very Much. He just happened to be, it was done in Abbey Road and the producer there. I can't remember the producer on Thank you Very Much, but our kid just happened to be going through and the music was nice thank you very much in China.

Speaker 3:

All session men didn't know anyone, but we had to do what we were told. We didn't play instruments ourselves, so shut up and let the session men do your song. And so our kid listened to it and said can I just go out and have a few words with the musos? I said definitely. So he goes out there and you could see the musos holding all their instruments and they're all looking oh, that's all we need, these bloody people coming in showing us we've been in here all our lives, we do this profession these bloody caskets coming down here. And our kid would just went over, would go over to each one that he thought and he was just saying I was thinking, oh yeah, it's a good idea. And he just talked to people and then, when he came back, let's go again. And then suddenly the change, the room changed, it was just a different. It was like, ooh, this is a nice song now. So that was it.

Speaker 3:

But then, so he knew the song. And then he, he rang me and he said, Mike, that thank you very much for the Aintree Iron, you know, do you think I said, well, I've done? Thank you very much for the Aintree Iron, you know you think I said well, I've done. Thank you very much for the family circle, thank you very much for love, etc. I've done all that. So that's why I've done the Aintree Iron. He said it's too oblique, don't? So I listened to my older brother, put the phone down, totally ignored him, brought the record out, got up into top four or something, and he rang again. He said, mike, that it was on the covers of the Daily Mail and places like that. What is the Aintree Iron, you know? And he rang up and he said that ancient iron thing, I know. And he rang up and he said that ancient iron thing, I think you might have been right.

Speaker 2:

So we'll never know.

Speaker 3:

But what was the other thing? Oh yeah, there was a far more interesting lyric in that song, thank you very much. It goes then to the Sunday times times, the nursery rhyme, the sunday times, the, the this and that, and then the end word is napalm bomb everyone, etc. And it's the prime minister of great britain's favorite record, as well as the. The queen and I'm thinking this does he not hear that? It's thank you very much for the Napa. We were against the Vietnamese War, for Christ's sake. And Napa.

Speaker 3:

Picture that child, her clothes being burnt off. It was horrific. So the best way for us and me, what I am, as you found today, you know certain things, you have to say something, but you mustn't be no, not mustn't. It's nicer if you do it in a gentle way. So just stick it in. And it was number four. No one ever said and I've been born everyone, for no one ever said an app on bomb everyone. My son in bristol yesterday said uh, do you know? It's an apom bomb, dad. That's probably why the prime minister thought I didn't know what it was, because you're singing that bomb, bomb everyone.

Speaker 2:

And if you just said so being a bleak is the best way to create a world-renowned earworm that everybody sits and loves with, which is fantastic, Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Chris, you're very welcome, thank you. Thank you very much for being our guest here today, absolute pleasure. So, ladies and gentlemen, if I can just have the microphone back Not that I thought you were going to steal it, but I've got it back. So, ladies and gentlemen, you so much. There is some outro music coming in a moment. Uh, thank you so much. A huge round of applause to mike mccartney. Thank you, and a big congratulations, of course, to admin animation. We are here on the day you have won two baftas and make incoming next the oscars. Boom onwards and upwards. Thanks for having us. I've been chris Grimes. Thegoodlisteningtoshowcom is the website. Thank you very much. Take some flyers about your book that is coming out too. Take lots, Take lots of flyers. So, thank you very much indeed. Did I mention about my box set? Beg, pardon, you did. Don't forget the scaffold box set coming out in April, april, april, the box set.

Speaker 3:

April Fool's Day Should be out.

Speaker 2:

April Fool's Day. Thank you very much indeed. Good night, host. Then you can find out how care of the series strands at the goodlistening2showcom website, and one of these series strands is called Legacy Life Reflections. If you've been thinking about how to go about recording your life story or the life story of somebody close to you for posterity, but in a really interesting, effortless and creative way, then maybe the Good Listening 2 Show can help help. Using the unique structure of the show. I'll be your host as together we take a trip down memory lane to record the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 of either your or their life story, and then you can decide whether you go public or private with your episode. Get in touch if you'd like to find out more. Tune in next week for more stories from the Clearing and don't forget to subscribe and review wherever you get your podcasts.