The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

From Political Strategy to Personal Redemption & Growth, finding Humour in Hardship. Andy Coulson's Extraordinary Journey of Resilience through the 'Best of Times' (at the heights of Political Power) to the 'Worst of Times' (of Imprisonment)

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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Delighted to welcome Andy Coulson, former Downing Street Director of Communications and ex Editor of News of the World to "The Good Listening To Show", in an episode that is both engaging and insightful. Andy takes us from the high-pressure world of political strategy, having rubbed shoulders with political giants such as David Cameron and Barack Obama, to a more personal journey of imprisonment, resilience and redemption. We explore the lessons from his time as editor of the News of the World and his candid reflections on the legal troubles that led to his conviction and subsequent imprisonment in the era of Phone Hacking. This episode is a testament to the power of embracing one's past, finding humour in hardship, and the enduring journey of personal growth.

Listeners will be captivated by Andy's transformation, which took root during his prison experience. The stark realities of Belmarsh contrasted with the rehabilitation opportunities at Hosley Bay, where Andy found solace in literature and purpose in helping fellow inmates. His anecdotes about simple comforts and the "squirrels" of life provide a fresh perspective on channeling distractions into motivation. Andy's journey is a powerful reminder of the importance of maintaining productivity and positivity, even in the most challenging circumstances.

Finally, Andy and I dive into his podcast, "Crisis, What Crisis?" which has evolved into a platform for sharing insights and stories of resilience. We explore the inspiring quotes and wisdom he collects, offering listeners a reservoir of motivation. Whether it's navigating family life, professional obligations, or the quirks that make us unique, Andy's insights are both entertaining and thought-provoking. This episode is a vibrant exploration of authenticity, redemption, and the endless pursuit of meaning in our personal and professional lives.


Andy Coulson shares his remarkable life journey, discussing the resilience needed to navigate both the heights of political power and the lows of prison. The conversation explores themes of failure, control, and the importance of storytelling in shaping our narratives and helping others.

• The impact of high-profile career experiences  
• Accepting and learning from failures  
• The role of humour in resilience  
• Finding clarity through control and perspective  
• The significance of family and personal legacy

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, chris Grimes, the storytelling show that features the Clearing, where all good questions come to get asked and all good stories come to be told, and where all my guests have two things in common they're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors a clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare and a cake. So it's all to play for. So, yes, welcome to the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me. Chris Grimes, are you sitting comfortably? Then we shall begin Boom. So, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a trophy cabinet day in the Good Listening To Show Stories of Distinction and Genius.

Speaker 2:

Delighted to welcome Andy Coulson to the show. Andy, as I'm sure many of us will know, is a journalist and political strategist, founder of Coulson Partners that I'll talk about later on as well. Former Downing Street Director of Communications for David Cameron circa 2010,. Former News of the World editor too. Why I wanted to speak to you, andy, apart from the joy and the privilege of curating you through this structure and journey, is I saw you speak at the Entrepreneurs' Convention a few months ago and when you came on stage I thought it'd be really, really fascinating to try and curate you through this journey. And when I listened to you I was so struck. It made me think of Dickens. You know the best of times, the worst of times and the sort of throne rooms of power in a sort of Shakespearean context. I thought, gosh, what a fantastic story that you've had. We'll contextualize everything as we go along, but first of all, welcome to the show. How's morale and what's your story of the day, andy coulson?

Speaker 1:

oh well, it's great to be with you, chris. Thanks for inviting me on. Thanks for that very generous intro. It's interesting that you mentioned dickens. I'm a big dickens fan. Perhaps we'll talk about it later, but dickens became. Dickens was quite important to me at a certain point of my life. Yeah, so maybe we'll pick up on that later. All is well here, uh, with me, and I'm very, um, I'm very pleased to be spending a bit of time with you lovely, and I've got a very exciting section towards the end, which is show us your qr code, please.

Speaker 2:

So I'll obviously be pointing people to your own podcast crisis what crisis? And also to coulson partners as well. So, yes, what I was so struck with was the sort of well, the extraordinary experience of you described one minute in a truncated timeline, being in a helicopter sandwiched between David Cameron and Obama back in the day, and then again truncating the timeline. Then the helicopter does a bit of a hard landing and then again it's a truncated timeline. You find yourself, best of times, worst of times, in a prison cell. So you've had many, many sliding doors, as you described, of your own relation in your life. So, um, for those of us that don't have a sort of reference point to how you describe, what do you do then, what's your favorite way of avoiding or answering that question, andy, about yourself?

Speaker 1:

I don't avoid it, and that goes to a central sort of part of my approach. Um, what, my sort of belief system, if you want to be a little bit more, you know, kind of airy fairy about it um, uh, I, I I'm not for avoiding the past. I'm not for avoiding failures past. I'm not for avoiding failures, and I've had plenty of them. I am for embracing them, putting them to work, but not being defined by them, and that's what I've been busy doing since 2016,. Really, when my dramas, which had lasted for the previous five years, came to an end, and since then, I've been working pretty hard, not reinventing myself because I'm I'm not, I'm not one for reinvention. Uh, I am one for, you know, taking your failures and putting them to work and moving forward. I kind of think that's the, that's the point of being here, if I can, if I can put it that way, and so, um and so yeah, in some regards, we've done that pretty successfully and the business is in good shape. Where I absolutely put my experience the good and the bad to good use as a strategic advisor. We do that in and around crisis, but we also do it in other areas that are less sharp, if you like. Yes, and I also put it to work with my podcast. That's what the pod is all about, really.

Speaker 1:

You know my podcast, I'm a big fan of yours, but my podcast is a uh, you know, as a place where I can sort of shoot some arrows back out into the world that I hope are useful. It's all there for everybody, free, uh, uh and um, and I get so much from it, so it's um, you know. It's done with that sort of idea in mind. It's also incredibly helpful for me. Frankly, you know, when I sit down once a fortnight with someone who's been through a difficult time, invariably far in excess of what I went through, it gives me a fresh dose of perspective. It gives me a fresh dose of uh, gratitude, it gives me a fresh dose of resilience. It's just um, you know, um. A listener can make up, or the viewer can make up their own minds, but I find it helpful.

Speaker 2:

Another main hook when I heard you speaking was you said that humour is the most underrated resilience strategy, because I work as a motivational comedian and I similarly find podcasting incredibly cathartic for what I learned from my guests as well. So I'm completely in that arena with you as well. And, of course, crisis, what Crisis? Your podcast is very beautifully succinctly put lessons for when life unravels. And again, I was so struck that, obviously in a sporting analogy, you're like a player manager, because you absolutely know what it's like to hit the heights and also rock bottom, which is a sort of fascinating well journey to now, a bit like you've prepared your entire life for this moment.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, you know it does draw on I suppose you know various parts of my working life. It certainly draws on my time as a journalist. This is before I was an editor, when I was a reporter. I was a showbiz reporter as a young man. So I spent my life, my 20s, really flying around the world, you know, turning left on aeroplanes and interviewing very famous people.

Speaker 1:

It was an amazing way to spend your 20s and a lot of those interviews were, you know, were with very famous people wanting to sit down and share their stories, and so, in a way, that's what I'm doing now. The difference now is that there's no agenda. I'm not pursuing the story. This is a very different enterprise and exercise and I think, because of what's happened to me in the interim, both in terms of the jobs that I've done as an advisor, that I think has definitely sort of adjusted my view of storytelling for sure, but also, of course, my own difficulties mean that my conversations are certainly different to what they were when I was in my 20s. And that's lovely, you know.

Speaker 1:

I really, you know I find that very satisfying because it's a sort of if it's not for anyone else.

Speaker 1:

It proves to me that, you know, I've learned a bit along the way and I've changed a bit along the way and, as a result, I think we end up with a pretty rich conversation.

Speaker 1:

And also, I think some guests know that, because of along the way and uh, and as a result, I think we end up with a pretty rich conversation and uh, and also I think some guests know that, because of so, obviously I'm super transparent about, you know, the fact that I went to prison for a while, you know, and I've interviewed a number of people who've also been to prison, but most of our guests have not uh, I think we just sort of get to the point of trust pretty quickly, you know, and that, and that obviously makes for a makes for a very good conversation and I love the description of yourself, of the fact you feel that you've been a poacher, a gamekeeper and also game as in fair game, in the narrative and again to the sliding doors of your life, that you've turned into an extraordinarily powerful way of helping others when their life unravels, and that, of course, is what cool some partners are about too yes, exactly, um, yeah, that's that's what we're all about really.

Speaker 1:

Uh, particularly for people who, as I've been, have been through uh or are going through uh, difficulty, but also for people. You know, we work with corporates, we work with private offices, family offices, we work with individuals, you know, more often with private offices, family offices, we work with individuals, you know, more often than not, actually it's an unrealized opportunity. It's a bit of a frustration that they're not, they haven't got the reputation that they need to drive their purpose. And that's what we do. Really. We're not PRs in the sort of traditional sense.

Speaker 1:

There are plenty of brilliant PR firms out there, but we're not about fame the sort of traditional sense. There are plenty of brilliant PR firms out there, but we're not about fame. We are about providing our clients with exactly the reputation they need to drive their purpose. It's got to be purpose-led. It can't be about profile and fame in that sense for us and the kind of work that we do. And, of course, if crisis comes, then that is obviously a risk to your reputation, then it's a risk to your values, it's a risk to you know every fundamental in your life and, yes, you know we know what that feels like. I know what that feels like and so we're. You know we're pretty good people to pretty good people to have in the room so it's a very cathartic space.

Speaker 2:

You have curated and I congratulate you for that and using every all the previous life experience bringing to bear, joining the dots up backwards in order to play towards your future yeah, well, thanks, chris.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I had a choice when I, you know, when I sort of emerged, uh, from my difficulties in 2015, and two choices for me were, you know, and obviously I was, I was pretty unemployable, bluntly, um, you know, I've been, you know, comprehensively cancelled is the word that we would use now um, um, and I didn't have a queue of people lining up to employ me, I can tell you, uh, but I did have an offer to write a book and to sort of tell my stories, to go out, you know, know, write that kind of book, kick a few shins, you know, tell my stories. And I, I'm not gonna lie to you, I certainly thought about it because I didn't have too many other options and I've got a, you know, young family to take care of. I didn't quite know what was going to happen next, but I thought hard about it and actually what I always wanted to do this is, when I was in Downing Street, my plan was always to see whether or not I could build a business, because I'd only ever been an employee in my life and the people that I really admire are people who get out and build something for themselves and I thought, well, that's what I'm going to do when I step out of politics. But of course things took a turn and then I reached that point where I thought, actually, this is going to be difficult, this is probably the more difficult choice.

Speaker 1:

But I don't want to be that bloke who writes that kind of book and who tours the TV studios, who, kind of you know, becomes even more bloody notorious. Who's just you know, trying to cash in or leverage the mistakes that he's made in that kind of you know, becomes even more bloody notorious. Who's just you know, trying to cash in or leverage the mistakes that he's made in that kind of way, rather than acknowledging that I've made some pretty epic errors, um, uh, in my professional life, but that I've also had some great success in my professional life. So I'm going to put both of those two things to work and I'm going to be I'm going to call this business, call some partners. I'm going to put my of those two things to work and I'm going to call this business, call some partners. I'm going to put my name over the door so everyone knows who it is and what I am and it's all there, inescapable anyway, on Google.

Speaker 1:

There's no getting away from it. And I didn't even try. And that's what I mean about reinvention. Really, I think the book would have required some kind of attempt at reinvention and it wouldn't have been me, I would have hated it, I know I would have hated it. So I took the other path, established a business and then yeah, I mean with the help of a lot of other people along the way not least, you know, my brilliant clients you know we've got ourselves into a very good position and we have a wonderful business now.

Speaker 2:

And full transparency and full disclosure is what you're applying as a currency.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's something that's incredibly rich and precious and therefore people can learn and get perspective from it. Yeah, I think so. That's my view of the world. Listen, there have been some pretty successful reinventions. I think we've just seen a pretty. You know we're talking the day after Donald Trump was inaugurated, so you know there are other routes one can take. Let's put it that way. But I think there's a just as on that example. I think it would be a very dangerous thing to look at the success or the comeback of Donald Trump and see that as a lesson for life. I think it's an extraordinary set of circumstances and I think he is an extraordinary human being in the true sense of the word. Extraordinary, yes, um, uh, and I think to to think that the methods that is deployed are the methods one should deploy to reach a happy life, yes, a meaningful life.

Speaker 2:

It's the pursuit of happiness, it's the human condition, of course.

Speaker 1:

I'm not so sure that that is. I'm sure there'll be plenty of people listening to this screaming in disagreement. I don't know, but that's not for me anyway, that's not the route for me. The route for me was to kind of lean into the failures that I've had in my life, acknowledge them Also when I get the opportunity to apologize for them. This is another one of those opportunities. I don't know who's listening to this, uh, or watching this podcast, but it may well be someone who is affected by what happened to the news of the world, and so I'll always apologize for the mistakes I made. I don't think I broke the law. I should say um, but, but I certainly messed up as the editor of that newspaper, pretty epically. But also to say that you know I'm not going to apologize for, you know, for trying to make my life as productive as it can be now, and that's what I'm working very hard at doing, and you know that's really the kind of thread that now runs through my life is just trying to be as productive as possible.

Speaker 2:

The conference. I saw you speak at the Entrepreneurs' Convention. It was about one word and it was about persistence, and that was what was fascinating also about your time on the stage was the fact that you know we need to persist in order to, you know, reinvent the narrative, to pull ourselves towards our future.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, again, I'm not a fan of the word reinvention, because reinvention suggests to me a sort of erasing of the past and I'm just not for that. But, yes, certainly for me, it know, the word persistence is only appropriate and useful. The more important word that sits in my mind every day really is productivity. That's the. Am I being productive? On the moments when I'm beating myself up, it's because I feel I haven't been productive enough. You know, and I do that sort of audit on myself on a fairly on a fairly regular basis, possibly too often, um, but I, um, I don't know, but yeah, I'm. That's the, the kind of internal commentary for me. My operating system, which is a question I ask, if you'll forgive me, on my podcast pretty, because I'm pretty frequently, because I'm very interested in people's operating systems um, if I turn that question on myself, then then that's the dial that I'm always looking to, that I'm looking to turn up. You know, am I getting more out of this situation? Day, hour, minute, year?

Speaker 2:

so let's get you on the open road of the curated structure of the good listening to show. Um, it's going to be a clearing a tree, a lovely juicy storytelling exercise called 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. There's going to be some alchemy, some gold, a couple of random squirrels, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, a golden baton and a cake. Also, the person that works for you within Crisis what Crisis? Jane Sankey was really wonderful at helping me ask you the question of whether you'd like to be in it. So I remember a phone call where I rang up and was talking about random squirrels and she went this is interesting, I'll ask Andy and see what he thinks. So you had her at squirrel. Yes, you had me at squirrel. So let's, we're going to get to your squirrels, so let's get going. So, Andy Coulson, what is where? Is a clearing? Clearing for you?

Speaker 1:

where do you go to get clutter free, inspirational and able to think? Well, I suspect, like a lot of your uh guests, it's, you know, it's home for me and, uh, you know, there's a period in my life where I was removed from my home when I was sent to prison, and so my appreciation of that environment was then, and is now, pretty heightened. I had a conversation recently with Paul McKenna, the hypnotherapist on my podcast, and we were talking about manifestation and I was getting him to chat through the process. He's just written a book on manifesting and as he was talking, I was thinking to myself I'm not sure I've ever really manifested, but then it occurred to me actually that I did, because when I was in prison, I would often, as you, find yourself in prison with too much time on your hands. I would often just think about being at home, sat in front of the fire, my family around me, my dog at my feet, maybe a glass of wine, and I would think very, very hard about that, and I was manifesting. I was definitely sort of in his definition of it.

Speaker 1:

I was, I was manifesting now whether or not that actually helped me to get through and then eventually, you know, get to that point where I stepped through the door, uh, and was able to do that. You know, uh, and I remember that day very well when I did, um, I don't, I don't really know, but I know that, I know that my, you know that my default clearing is for sure, um, you know that place. Um sat with my family. I've got three sons, um and uh, and with my wife, eloise, uh, sadly, the dog that I had met that was in my mind at that time. We lost him a little while later. But we have a, we have another, ferdinand.

Speaker 2:

He's an important part of our lives that's a really beautiful manifestation of a serious happy place you're clearing. You know home is where the heart is and to have imagined that from the moment of despair behind the bars to then pull you through is is a really unique. No one's ever interpreted it with that answer. So we're going to be in front of the fire. Shea household at coulson. You can have the dog, the family, the wine, it's all there. That's your clearing, that's your serious happy place.

Speaker 2:

I'm now going to interfere, if I may, and interrupt your clearing by arriving with a tree and because of of my acting background, this is a bit Waiting for Godot-esque, a bit Beckett-y, a bit deliberately existential. I'm going to shake your tree to see which storytelling apples fall out. How do you like these apples? You've had five minutes to have thought about four things that have shaped you, andy Coulson, three things that inspire you, two things that never fail to grab your attention and borrow from the film Up, that's squirrels.

Speaker 2:

You know what never fails to grab your attention, irrespective of anything else that's going on for you, sometimes called shiny object syndrome. And then the one is a quicker, unusual fact about you. We couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us it's not a memory test, so I'll curate you gently through that. So back to shaking the canopy of your tree as you see fit, and you can go as deep as you like, when you like, how you like, if you like, through this structure. So four things, first of all, that have shaped you, andy coulson well, I think, um, I think, uh.

Speaker 1:

Again, I hesitate because I suspect you've had you've had some similar answers, but you know, uh, you know, as with everyone, what shaped me is my upbringing. I think that's what gave me my work ethic. I think that's what gave me that productivity drive that I have, and I think, actually that's what gave me, or at least uh, kind of fueled or enabled my resilience. And I have a fair dose of that. I think, uh, you know, and if I track that back, I think I get that from my, from my mom for sure. She's a very resilient individual. She's had some very tough stuff in her life and, um, and I think I've, you know, I don't know how much of it is biography versus biology. I think it it's probably a bit of both, and I think that's the case. I certainly think that's the case for me. And then I think about you know, when I think about my upbringing, I don't just think about my family and the immediate environment, because there's tough stuff as well. I mean, a lot of other people go through, but my parents divorced when I was about 11. It's not a good age for a divorce, are, but my parents divorced when I was about 11. It's not a good age for a divorce. Are they both still with us, your mum and dad? Yes, they're both still with us. In fact, I'll soon be celebrating my father's 90th birthday. He's in very good nick, and my mum too. They're friendly and it's all been very civilised over the years. But certainly the divorce had an impact on me. I think I think also added to my resilience. You know, I was having to deal with stuff as a sort of an 11 year old boy that I think actually I was pretty, you know, pretty tough at the time, but I, you know, I took the, I think I took the resilience from it for sure, which is a positive. But then it's not just about family, it's about the other people that kind of are around your life.

Speaker 1:

As a young person, and you know, when I was 16 years old, I decided I was going to go in the air force because my dad was in the air force and my oldest brother was in the air force and my plan was to was to try and get, try and be the first member of my family to get a commission. Um, and I was on. I was an air cadet. I loved it all and I was on track to do that actually.

Speaker 1:

And then I, and then I did some work experience, uh, on the local paper on the evening, echo, in basildon, um, and I met a guy called peter owen who is the deputy editor of that paper and he became a bit of a mentor of mine and and, uh, and I wanted to go to work as soon as I finished my, uh, my o levels as they were. I wanted to go to work when I was 16 and he wouldn't let me and he made me go and do my a levels, which I really didn't want to do. But I did that and he did it with the promise that if I did well in my a levels, then he'd, then he'd give me a, give me an interview and give me a chance of getting on the training scheme to become a journalist. And that's exactly what he did. Two years later I got a job with the Eating Echo. I went on their training scheme for six months and then became an indentured journalist.

Speaker 2:

He delivered on his promise of a….

Speaker 1:

He delivered on his promise And… Can you say his name once again? Peter Owen, no longer with us. Okay, that was my next question. Um, yeah, unfortunately. Um very, very well attended um funeral down in billericay, uh, where he lived and was a proper pillar of the community. Um, and uh, yeah, he, peter, you know, peter sort of set me on a path really, uh, and then from there I got shifts up into the national newspapers and from there, you know my sort of journalistic career took off.

Speaker 1:

So that's where I'd start. I think I'd raffle that up, if you'll allow me, yeah, into kind of, you know, upbringing and influences, uh, early, early in my life. Um, you know, my wife and family have shaped me. Uh, I've learned so much from them. Still, do I learn from me a bit as well? I hope you know Eloise, my wife is an amazing woman. She just recently started a business. She's an acupuncturist, started three years of training. She's doing brilliantly with that. She's our sort of family Yoda, which is more complimentary than perhaps it first sounds.

Speaker 2:

No, no, I would take it for her as a compliment.

Speaker 1:

No, I will often say, right, you are, but I'm very, very lucky. I married brilliantly. Without doubt, the best question I have ever asked anybody was asked of Eloise when I said will you marry me? Without doubt my best moment. And then, and then, three cracking kids, three sons. So they, you know, they shaped me, I learned from them.

Speaker 2:

They're amazing and if I made back to the Dickens quote the best of times, the worst of times, it was the best question you ever asked. But also it was the highs, the lows, the lows for the highs. The nature of a relationship that has all its challenges, and to be a constant in that through life's challenges, adversities, hurdles, is a wonderful thing absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, it's, it's been a. It's been an amazing and at times difficult, largely due to me, um, her marriage. This is an amazing individual, so incredible. So I'm incredibly, incredibly lucky. Um, I think I would, I think I would uh, if you'll allow me, give a brief mention to, you know, my clients, uh, because they have shaped me.

Speaker 1:

I was trying to think whether or not there's a sort of equivalent in earlier parts of my life, and I think there are. You know, I mean colleagues really, you know, in the various jobs that I've held, influence you, you know, kind of hugely, and I've worked with some brilliant people over the years. I've been so lucky in so many different environments. You know, newspapers included. You know one of the sort of I guess I could say great shames. I don't know whether that's the way to describe it, but one of the great shames for me is of my time in newspapers. You know, now I've been so characterised in a certain way, and with good reason. To an extent, this is not a winch. I'll be the last person to whinge about it. I think it'd be grossly, grossly hypocritical. So I'm not doing that. But you know the difficulties of newspapers and I was a sun man more than I was a news of the world man for most of my career, um, but in both places you we're full of very bright, very funny, very hardworking, decent people. And you can have your view on the tabloid press, which I think is perhaps a separate discussion as to you know the whys and wherefores of it, but you know they were brilliant places in lots of ways. They're very meritocratic.

Speaker 1:

You know I'm a. I'm a. You know I'm a lad from a, you know, born in a council house in essex. Um, my parents worked very hard to get out of that council house, uh, I took the journey that I briefly described through local newspapers and then I ended up as a national newspaper editor, and not at any point in that journey did anyone ever say to me where did you go to school?

Speaker 1:

Sunshine? Yeah, you know they wanted to know whether or not I could do the job and whether I was up to it. Yeah, and you know people take a view as to as to whether I was or I wasn't, um, ultimately, but, um, I had an amazing career in newspapers, surrounded by amazing people, and then, in politics, I was plunged into an entirely different world, uh, with some truly brilliant people and again, you know, the world of politics get character, gets characterized in a certain way again with some justification, I would say but it's also full of some brilliant people who, frankly, could, you know, spend their time, effort doing other things. That would be considerably, with a considerably greater reward. Some truly big brains that I worked around, that I learned from and I was able to help as well. I contributed for sure. That was a brilliant environment. So, if you'll allow me, I'll wrap all that up again.

Speaker 2:

Together I'll be clients and colleagues and which of those parts of your narrative are you would you describe as your halcyon days? When were you at your happiest in the? Oh, I'm at my happiest now.

Speaker 1:

For sure, good answer, yeah for sure, without any shadow of a doubt, I'm happier in every regard now than than I've ever been in my life, and that's a that's a good thing to be able to say at 57. But that doesn't mean that there weren't some great moments and there were, you know, some great moments also, some, you know, pretty, um, pretty useless ones. Which brings me to my final thing. That shaped me and that would be my failures, you know, and I've, I've had, I've had plenty, um, uh, um, pretty public, played out in a way that was, you know, difficult to handle at the time. Again, not whinging about it, that would that would also be hypocritical, um, but you know, pretty difficult. The most difficult bit of it is just, it was so long and, yes, and difficult to manage, difficult really to know and how you could deal with it, and I, uh, I took about a year. I think my troubles were sort of five years in, you know, across the whole piece. The first year I sort of slightly lost my head, didn't really know how to deal with it, so much incoming my career sort of folded very quickly. When that happens, you know all the parts of your life that you know you have built, you know, crumble pretty quickly uh, I'll certainly did. Um, you know I was I was unemployable, as I mentioned earlier pretty quickly, um, and and then just thrown into a long, very long legal process that I didn't really know where it was going to end, and it was multi-faceted as well um, and, and that ended, uh, eventually, in 2014 with a, you know, with a conviction. I was on trial for three, with three charges, and I sort of won two, lost one, yeah, a very significant one, and that's when I went to prison. But when I was in prison, I knew that I would be coming out and going straight into another trial, because there was another matter in Scotland which was very, in my view, politically motivated yeah, this was all around the time of the uh independence, um, scottish independence vote, and other and other factors uh, but, fortunately so I did come out of prison.

Speaker 1:

I did go on to in straight into another trial, the consequences of which would have been pretty serious had it gone wrong, but I was acquitted in that trial, thankfully, and, and quite rightly, and, and that's the point at which I could start to think about the future, and and my first thought was well, you know, what are you going to do about these failures and, and as I touched on earlier, my view was I'm not. I'm not going to try and escape them. I'm not going to try and put them in a box. I'm not going to try and I'm not going to move abroad or create a business with some you know mysterious name. I'm not going to try and put them in a box.

Speaker 1:

I'm not going to try and I'm not going to move abroad or create a business with some you know mysterious name. I'm not going to try and operate in the shadows. I'm not going to. I'm not going to write that book and then follow that route becoming, you know, notorious, as I touched on. What I'm going to do is is be me. Yes, I'm going to be me, and and it will either work or it won't work, and fortunately it's worked- it reminds me of that Oscar Wilde quote be yourself, because everyone else is taken.

Speaker 2:

And the source of resilience, in order to be a phoenix and rise again, is to tap into your own resolve and persist and turn out. I think so.

Speaker 1:

I think so, and I had time, and, although I was very aware of my, of my failures, uh, I am also I was also aware that, you know, what we don't do in our prisons, thankfully, is sort of lobotomize.

Speaker 1:

Um, so I'm, you know, I still have the same brain, I still think the same way, I still have the same abilities, you know, and I've been in some quite interesting rooms helping people through some quite interesting things and advising along the way, and none of that had been taken from me, those abilities that what had been taken from me was the, was the sort of ability to put it to work. And so I had to remake that and and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't the easiest of tasks. It was a challenge, sitting down for the first time, trying to convince someone that they need you in their life as an advisor. Yes, you know, uh was not a straightforward process, but I believed, uh, you know I'll, you know, fundamentally, I believed in my abilities, I believe that I had something useful to contribute and I believe, and still believe, that if you've got someone in the room who's lived a bit, who's got some scars, who knows what it is to lose a reputation, which is obviously the area that I work in, then that can be very useful.

Speaker 2:

And that was to my point about being a bit of a player manager. I know it's a slightly fatuous analogy, but the idea that you've been there, you've done it, you've got the T-shirt.

Speaker 1:

You've experienced it. Therefore, that's seen as a valuable commodity because you've hit rock bottom and you've lived to tell the tale. Yeah, but in any profession, the proof is in the work that you deliver. The reason we've been successful is not just because I've been able to sit in front of enough people and say, oh, by the way, I think I can put all this failure to work for you.

Speaker 1:

The reason we've been successful is because the work that we produce is pretty good and pretty useful, yeah, and that you know we make some promises in our business, and promises that I have in my working life that I'll always have a view which might sound a bit strange for an advisor, but there are lots of advisors out there who don't necessarily have a view that it matters that I'll be, that I'll be available which is very important, particularly for people who are going through a difficulty and that I'll be right more than I'm wrong. So I don't promise that I'll be right all the time, because how can I be a human being? But I will be right more than I'm wrong.

Speaker 2:

I'm very, very confident I'll be able to deliver, that I would have been very surprised if you were to say you didn't have an opinion Of course, trust me, it's not always the case, particularly when things are sticky In politics.

Speaker 1:

I've been in lots of rooms where there's been sticky stuff to discuss and the ability for people to disappear into the wallpaper. In politics it does happen. Yes, I'm not. I've never been a, I've never been a sort of wallpaper kind of bloke. I tend to take a step forward when things are difficult rather than a step back.

Speaker 2:

My dad used to say when the going gets tough, the tough gets going.

Speaker 1:

That's the idea, yes, yeah yeah, that would be the full thing.

Speaker 2:

that shaped me, I think, uh, wonderful uh, sorry, not wonderful that you had failures, but wonderful for the interpretation of the four things that are sure we can talk about that.

Speaker 1:

I think I don't necessarily use the word wonderful, but I'd certainly say that, um, I'd rather have a life with failures than a life without failures. That is for sure. Because if you have a life without failures, now what are you going to learn? You know, it depends what your view of what it's all about without which inspirational quotes later on as well.

Speaker 2:

So this is quite interesting. Also, as you were speaking, there is a lovely question construct later on about with the gift of hindsight, which I'm fascinated to get to when we get there again. There's no agenda in what I'm saying. I'm just really enjoying the curation of this journey in your case as well. So three things that inspire you is what we're on to next. If there's any overlap, that's completely fine. But three things that inspire you now.

Speaker 1:

Well there, is overlap, because my family inspire me, obviously you know I've touched on that already, I think my podcast guests without wishing to keep going back to the podcast, um, they really do, they really, they really do. And you know, as I say, I record an episode every couple of weeks and I get something from every single one of them.

Speaker 2:

um, I really, I really do and I'm uh, I'm lucky to have those conversations and I'm grateful for them and they're just full of you know, they're full of, they're full of gold and I, and you know, and I take things from them and I put it to work, you know, it's, it's just, it's just really, it's just a really useful thing to have um in in my life um, sort of a bi-weekly jolt of perspective, because I know that, I know you're seven series in, so you're doing a lot of conversations in that arena and, yeah, you know the premise is that your guests are often at the brutal, sometimes life-threatening, sharp end of crisis and then, fascinatingly often, experts who are in the room when crisis strikes, which is a very powerful time to then tap into one's own ability to cope, stay in control and be resilient yes, yeah, no, we're very lucky.

Speaker 1:

The vast majority we've had over 100 of them now and the vast, the vast majority are with, are with people who've experienced crisis. We've had a fair few as well, as you say, who are sort of managed, sort of professionals around the edge of around the edge of crisis. Um and uh, yeah, no, we, we, we, we love it.

Speaker 2:

Have you been interviewed for your own format yet? People?

Speaker 1:

I have. I did that. I did that quite early on. I felt that, um, I felt that to continue with it, the podcast was launched in in covid, as so many podcasts were, um, I started thinking it would be a limited series. Uh, I really enjoyed it. Uh, we had some wonderful guests, um, uh and uh. And then there was a, there was an enthusiasm to do more, um, and in that second series I was interviewed in the first episode by a friend of mine, jane moore, and that was the first time actually that I'd really talked about kind of everything that had come to pass. Um, and she was, although she's a good friend of mine, jane, she's also a brilliant journalist and she actually didn't put up on she's a good friend of mine, jane, she's also a brilliant journalist and she actually didn't put up on Shears, let's put it that way. And that's there. That's still available if people want to listen to it. I talk through my dramas in some detail.

Speaker 2:

I have got a sort of show as your QR code moment coming later on. So I promise we're going to point people directly to that. So sorry, back into the shaking of the tree. So I promise we're going to point people directly to that. So sorry, back into the shaking of the tree.

Speaker 1:

We're still in the inspiring part of your canopy, yes, so the other thing I have on my phone is a little sort of pot of gold, so I collect quotes, I collect little bits of inspiration. It might be from a film, it might be from a book, it might be something that I've seen on television. You know, literally the last piece that I put in. I was watching I don't know if you've seen it yet, but the documentary on Netflix about Avicii, the Swedish DJ producer who took his own life. It's a fantastic bit of filmmaking. It really is. I have to say I have never seen a documentary start with the footage of an unborn baby. Yes, you know the scanned footage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, with his mum and dad, yeah, and it literally follows this life through to. It's obviously very sad and very premature and deeply, deeply moving and, of course, the moss of the embryo is where the music begins, isn't it really so?

Speaker 1:

that's just, yeah, it's just an astonishing, just an astonishing kind of bit of storytelling. Actually, chris, I'm sure you know you appreciate it, but the little bit of gold that I took from that and we've done some interviews on our pod with celebrities. I did an interview not long ago with a singer called katie mellower who had an acute cyclotic breakdown in her life. Actually she had, she had an appalling experience but thankfully came through. She sat and talked to us about that and the pressures of fame and the machine of fame and the machine of fame. And you hear these things and you see these things and we read about it.

Speaker 1:

I used to report on them, by the way, I've been around that world a fair bit and I've now had a fair few conversations with people in that world about the need to somehow interrupt this yeah, the right kind of support and help. And there were interventions with Avicii before he took his own life and in one of those conversations about one of those interventions, there was somebody said I think it's one of his friends says the more you make people happy, the more you create emotion. Uh, which, of course, is what he did. These thousands upon thousands of people, just you know, orchestrating their, you know their, their joy, you know a gig, the less, the more difficult it becomes or the less able you are to manage your own happiness, gosh, and I thought that I thought that was really, I thought that was a really interesting way of characterizing the challenge of celebrity actually, yeah, yeah very astute.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, um. So that's the last, that's the last little bit of gold that I've popped into my pot. So what do you call it on your phone? It's actually just called gold okay um, and I uh, yeah, I mean I've got you said it's a, so it's a long list.

Speaker 2:

Now I can tell you it's called colson gold on your phone. I like that. It was like its own app. Do someday if you want to share the action yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe, but um, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1:

It's a useful thing, actually, and if I find myself, one of my New Year's resolutions is to put my travel time to better or productive use, yeah, so this is a really good. This is a really good sort of you know, every now and then just dip in and spend 20 minutes in it. It's a good use of travel time if I'm on the tube.

Speaker 2:

And you can listen to the Good Listening To show as well of course. Exactly a good use of travel time. If I'm on the tube, you can listen to the good listening to show as well, of course. Exactly, exactly, exactly, yeah. Anything else in your goal? You know the idea of if you find gold, keep digging. So anything else you'd like to whip out of your coulson?

Speaker 1:

goal. Well, there's lots of I can open up here. There's lots of, there's lots of, there's lots of quotes, there's lots of um, there's lots of sort of you know, life advice you like from various books that I've read, some of which I'm sure you have too. You know, I love the idea and I use this actually quite a lot in my own head is that there's nothing more useless than a I just want to get this right because it's a Steve Peters quote but there's nothing more useless than a self-appointed victim. And I think that's a very succinct way of giving yourself a bit of a kick and say you know, put yourself together, move on.

Speaker 1:

Yes, steve Peters' book was the chin paradox, which is, yes, which is a cracking book. So I go from something like that to uh, to uh I don't know. You know, bonnie right, uh, life gets more precious when there's less of it to waste, when there's less yes, which? Yes, absolutely nick, which is from nick of time, which is a cracking song. Time waits for all of that. Time waits for all of that. Time waits for no man. Yeah, but life gets more precious when there's less of it to waste.

Speaker 2:

So I, you know, I sort of, I go all over the place there's alchemy and gold coming up, which again resonates with your Coulson gold, and there's also a moment for the quote of choice coming up as well. So we could be now, if that's the influencing, done and dusted. Unless I've interrupted you before you did a third one. Are we feeling we've influenced?

Speaker 1:

no, no, I think. I think for me it would be, it would be family, it would be, it would be those guests that I've touched on, yeah, who also, who also provide the gold, by the way. So there's a, yes, there's a, there's a link, you know, william hay quote immediately pops the mind. He was a guest of ours um, that everything is life and everything in life is doable other than death row. Um, which I think is largely true, which I think is largely true, and I think it's a, it's a, it's a very, it's a very good line and now we're borrow from the film up, which is a deliberate construct, where I just thought oh squirrels, you know where the dog is going.

Speaker 2:

Oh squirrels, so as I. So as I say. Nigel Bottrell at the Entrepreneurs' Convention calls it shiny object syndrome, but I think of it as just being squirrels. So what are your two monsters of distraction? What are the squirrels that never fail to stop you in your tracks and get your attention? Andy Coulson.

Speaker 1:

Well, I've got a new one, which I'm undecided about because I've just bought my first Apple Watch. And I bought it because I do have an attention problem, right. So if I'm in a meeting, which I often am, you know I get pretty absorbed and I'm not brilliant. Actually, this is a failure in my operating system. I find it quite difficult to hold what's coming next, and so I decided decided. Well then, I just need a prompt. So I've got one of these things stuck on my wrist and I have to say, having had it for a few days, I can see the upsides, but I can absolutely see the downsides as well have it whole of the meeting, sort of searing focus, and then you find it difficult to surface.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, but I always, I always. I always found it quite difficult to make sure that I yeah, yeah, kind of hold and give myself enough time to prepare for what's next. So I sort of bounce along a bit too. I bounce along a bit too frequently, you know I manage it when I'm coaching.

Speaker 2:

I call that the airlocks in between, how you surface one run rabbit hole and then actually go through a bit of a well, a literal airlock to breathe into the next critical impact opportunity.

Speaker 1:

Go figure, yeah, yeah no, exactly exactly then also, like we all are, you know, a man of a certain age. You know, I'd like to, I'd like to live a little bit longer than perhaps um, uh, I'm currently on track to do so healthy. That's another reason why I've got this thing stuck on my wrist. My wife tells me that it will help. We'll see where that goes, but certainly this is grabbing my attention. Okay, good squirrel Number one, which is a bit trivial, and then I think, for me it it's.

Speaker 1:

I can get, I can give the obvious sort of professional answer that my job is to be on sort of constant high alert for my clients, right? So any communication from a client, I am, you know, I am on it. And if I feel at any point that the business is not reacting in the way that I think it should react, then that is something that I tend to act on, whatever the day of the week, whatever the hour of the day. But when I think about my you know the sort of my dashboard, if you like if I see anything from the, if I see anything from the family flashing, it's all I'm.

Speaker 2:

You know, I'm on it yes, so the family's the ultimate squirrel. We all know that. That's fantastic, exactly. I'd even interrupt this if my daughter rang. It's a bit like it's hard wiring, and my son it's hard wiring. Yeah, exactly, children are the squirrels we all love. So now, quite an unusual fact about you now, andy kielsen.

Speaker 1:

We couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us well, you did say quirky, so um, this is not especially interesting, but I can turn my ears inside out I could do do that as a kid, and then I lost that capacity, did you?

Speaker 2:

I used to pump them in and then sit there and then be able to come out again, but I can't do it now.

Speaker 1:

Well, I've got earplugs in, so I can't do it. Oh, go on, I'll take one out if you like you can still do it. What I do know is it works much better when your ears are cold that's another quirky fact about me.

Speaker 2:

I love a cold ear.

Speaker 1:

Yes, he's done it, ladies and gentlemen and if we were together, I'd now ask you to pull my finger. And if you, if you virtually pull my finger, we'll probably know out it came that's good, and there you go. You did, you did say, you did say quirky chris, yes and thank you for not being safe.

Speaker 2:

Normally when people ask you to pull your finger in my family someone farts, invariably, so thank you for not doing that. So the ear did pop out at that moment. So that is a great quirky fact. In my circa 250 episodes nobody's ever done that. Andy coulson, we're shaking your tree. Hurrah, let's say that first of all, and now we stay in the clearing, move away from the tree and, as we know, the clearing is the quintessential coulson path rug of your family dog wine fire that you are manifesting when you are. Presumably it was, is it? Bell marsh was where the darkest I was in bell marsh.

Speaker 1:

I was in bell marsh for a while, for a couple of months. I was told I'd be there for the weekend, but it turned out to be a couple of months and then I was shipped off to a prison called Hosley Bay, which is a resettlement prison in Suffolk.

Speaker 2:

Sounds more like a sort of seaside resort than Belmarsh that one.

Speaker 1:

It was considerably more interesting than Belmarsh, which was a pretty broken system at the time. Know, we were locked up most days, sort of 22 hours, 23 hours sometimes, gosh whereas at hosley bay you were you know there's an open prison so you were able to work and move around the prison, you know, a little bit more freely. And I was put to work there. The governor, when I arrived, pulled me into his office and said right, for as long as you're here, we're gonna, we going to put you to work.

Speaker 1:

And so they made me an education orderly, and I was sent off to the education department and I was there helping kind of get prisoners who'd been in prison for a very, very long time in some cases sort of, you know, 25, 30 years to prepare for release, which was fascinating work five, 30 years to prepare for release, which was fascinating work. And to be sitting chatting with someone who was trying to sort of prepare, come to terms with, get their head around the idea of reintegrating into society yes, it was true, it was truly fascinating. And so we, you know I'd help them do this, prepare their CV or start writing job applications. We did some dragons Den presentations with them. A lot of them were pretty entrepreneurial still and, yeah, I mean, it's not work I thought I'd ever do, obviously, but finding myself there, I think I made the most of it and I think I've contributed the best I could that period of time. That was the servant leadership.

Speaker 2:

You know for whom and for what am I in service, and that's quite pioneering of the governor to have thought about that too, because obviously you're accessing your sort of norman stanley fletcher a more intelligent inmate. If you like to be able to, you know. Whilst you're doing porridge you'll see where I'm going.

Speaker 1:

There be a service in rehabilitation as well, which is fantastic yeah, yeah, and that's what you, what it's got, comes back to that productivity point that I mentioned earlier. You know, when I I'm at my worst, when I can't be productive, yes, you know, I all the all the sort of you know negative stuff, that that's there uh, bubbles up for sure when I am, much more quickly when I am not being productive. And so to be able to go from two extremes, really, from Belmarsh, where I could do absolutely nothing other than sit on a plastic mattress reading Dickens, though, Ah, yes, and again, this is the worst of times.

Speaker 2:

quote from A Tale of two cities right here yeah, no, I loved that.

Speaker 1:

When I first arrived, uh, in belmarsh there was a book ban, um, for reasons I won't bore you with, but the government had decided former colleague of mine in fact had there was no prisons, um, or justice secretary um, chris grayling, had decided that they would prevent any books being sent into prison. Right, and so my friends were sending books on a sort of daily basis and I was getting none of them, and I couldn't get to the library either for quite some time because the system was just broken for library visits. And then eventually I did yeah, I think it was a couple of weeks in and I maybe a little bit longer and I just hoovered up the, you know the, as many books as I could, and the biggest books I could find and I had read it before, but not for many, many years was the pick with papers yeah um, not really remembering just what a brilliant book it is, took that back and and, of course, the pick with papers has everything.

Speaker 1:

It has newspapers, it has courts, it has, uh uh, politics. You know, the first kind of. You know, uh, a characterization of a politician kissing a baby on the campaign trail is in the book. Wow right, and it's just a brilliant story. You know, it's just a, it's just a great, great read. Obviously, dickens being the storytelling genius of geniuses and I just I can't tell you that just got me through, you know, a number of days. I rattled through it, but what a release. You know to kind of disappear into that world.

Speaker 2:

And if I may say how interesting it was that when I perceived you, I thought of Dickens. How extraordinary that is the tale of teaching. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

No of dickens. How extraordinary that is the tale of yes, yeah, no, well, there we are, there we are. But yeah, I mean, uh, people focus has absolutely everything, uh, uh in it. It's uh, it's a, it's a fantastic piece of work so we're still in the clearing.

Speaker 2:

Now we're moving away from the tree. Next we're going to talk about alchemy and gold. When you're at purpose and in flow and you've inferred this in any case but when you're at purpose and in flow and you've inferred this in any case, but when you're at purpose and in flow, what?

Speaker 1:

are you absolutely happiest doing and what you're here to reveal to the world Professionally or personally.

Speaker 2:

This is the story behind the story of being you show, so I don't mind how you answer that.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'll try and answer from both perspectives, shall I? Because I've kind of given you the answer, I think, on the personal perspective. I think, just to add to that, what am I at my happiest? When am I at my happiest? And I think it's on holiday with my family, my three sons my youngest is 15. I've got a 22-year-old and a 24-year-old all boys and our older sons.

Speaker 1:

We know that moment's coming when you know when they'll be, you know, disappearing off to an extent. Uh, harvey, my eldest, you know, lives, lives, lives away. Monty's still studying. Uh, finn's with us, um, but the idea that all three of them still, you know, quite enjoy spending time with us, coming on holiday with us, being with us, you know. But we know that the clock is ticking to an extent. Hopefully that will never stop entirely, but it's going to reduce, right. So I grab every one of those opportunities, yeah, absolutely, squeeze every bit I can out, and so that's a.

Speaker 1:

That's a slight extension on the answer that I've already given you. Yeah, profession, professionally, it's very simple for me. I love being useful and the sweet spot for me in this job, as it was in my last job, is when I'm I feel like I'm being useful. Yeah, that I've got that. I've got something sensible to offer, uh, and as long as it's kind of it's proved to be useful more than it isn't ie that I'm right more than I'm wrong then I'm doing my job and that you know, particularly when you're dealing with someone who is facing their own difficulty, you know that is a true professional privilege and that's why you know, I said earlier I've never been happier.

Speaker 1:

I've never been happier professionally as well as personally, because when you're in that room with someone and they are putting their trust in you and they are kind of getting it all out and confronting themselves and what it is they've got to deal with or their business has got to deal with to move forward, then that is a very privileged position to find yourself in and then to feel that you've done something to help them, to really move them along, to bring them a different sense of perspective, and then set a campaign plan, which is how we work. We take a very much campaign approach to our work and you see the results of that over the long term. We've got clients here who we've worked with for a number of years now.

Speaker 2:

Um, that's very, very pleasing and are you sitting today in coulson hq? Is that where you are? Yes, I am yeah, just pinning ponytail in a bit of geography for you there, and now I'm going to award you with a cake, andy coulson. So this is another suffused metaphor with storytelling stuff. Do Do you like cake? First of all, andy.

Speaker 1:

Yes, too much, in fact, the office where we're in at the moment. They love a free cake Thursday, which is truly one of the great temptations, and if I happen to be in and around the office at that point, yeah, it's not a healthy afternoon.

Speaker 2:

Lovely. And what's the cake of choice, please? It's a metaphorical cake Lemon drizzle, lemon drizzle, thank you. And now cherry on your lemon drizzle, which is stuff like now what's a favourite inspirational quote that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future?

Speaker 1:

Well, I've got a few, because I collect them, as you know. So, um, we haven't really talked about bitterness, uh, which, um, which is an important uh aspect when you've, you know, when you've had difficulty in your life, because the, the bitterness pit is the, is the thing to avoid right at all costs. And I've managed to do that. Like I said, it took me a while to work it out, but I, you know, I took out a year. But having worked that out, you know, I really um, I think, pretty um skilled now, pretty able at um and avoiding bitterness, and the reason I do that is partly because of, because of, because of this quote. It's been attributed to a number of people, including Nelson Mandela, but bitterness is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die. So I think that is absolutely the case. You know, when I've had my bitter days and I have I've always felt worse the following day. It's always sent me backwards, not forwards.

Speaker 1:

It comes with a cost, yes, yeah yeah, so that's one, always comes with a cost.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, yeah, so that's one.

Speaker 1:

Um, and then, um, I think, uh, from a an executive that I worked with a number of years ago, um, who I didn't know very well actually and who I didn't work very closely with, but it's, it's funny, it's a, it's a quote that's really stuck with me. But nothing is as amazing or as devastating as it first appears, and I didn't really even really know what he meant when he said it, because I think I was probably in my mid-twenties. But it stuck in for some reason, and it's come back and replayed as a jolt of perspective a number of times, because very little is, as I think, with the given that wish at the bang family drum too loud, other than perhaps the birth of your children. For me, as I said, you know, louise, that question that I asked was amazing, as more amazing than I thought it would be actually. Yeah, well, it's just increasingly, you know, but, um, I think it's, I think it's a general, I think it's a truism that not much is as amazing or as devastating, for that matter, as it first appears.

Speaker 2:

And because I love storytelling structure, you've given us two. I sort of want a third now. So no pressure, but a third quote.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, if you'll allow me, because I've already mentioned it, but I think I would go with Steve Peters there's nothing more useless than a self-appointed victim, Because I think that is. Yeah, I think that's a rule for me. It's a pretty fixed rule and it's entirely true. It's true strategically and it's true tactically.

Speaker 2:

Indeed Lovely. And now this is a question I'm very intrigued by, uh, with the gift of hindsight, andy coulson, uh, what notes help or advice might you proffer to a younger version of yourself? And you can go wherever you like in your own timeline to answer that, but how would? What advice might you proffer? I think?

Speaker 1:

be on, receive more than transmit, enjoy every bit of it and remember that every day is an integrity test. But if I was also chatting to my younger self, I'd also be saying listen, you're going to have an amazing life, lucky you. I can look back at my life and think, oh, I wish I'd made more of that. I can obviously look back at my life and think, oh, I wish I'd made more of that. I can obviously look back at my life and think, oh God, if only I'd done things differently or managed differently.

Speaker 1:

There's all sorts of things that you can say that I certainly can say about my life that I can look at through a sort of lens of regret. But I also, you know I got a lot right as well. I mean, I didn't do a bad job for most of my career. Unfortunately, I also did some things pretty badly, and you know, trying to get to a stage in your life where you recognize that you know that's okay. Both of those things you know that's what life is. You know very little of life is all up or all down. Nothing is as amazing or as devastating as it first appears. I think that's true over the long term as well.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it reminds me of the Hamlet quote nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm not. You know, I'm not a, I'm not a a person of faith. I have, you know, obviously, in my podcast I talk to a lot of people where it's their faith actually that's helped them, that's helped them through I've. I'm not a religious person, but I have come to appreciate, um, uh, sort of stoics in particular. I'm very interested in all that, um, that kind of area and, uh, and sort of philosophy to an extent, um and um.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, what you find so often is a lot of these quotes do track back to marcus aurelius, do track back to marcus aurelius and Seneca and others, epictetus and whatnot, and all of that, of course. What interests me is all that it just predates so much of what we now know about Christian faith, so we're going seriously off topic. But anyway, I get drawn to that stage of life that I'm at now, perhaps more than I used to.

Speaker 2:

Lovely. I was just letting that hang there. I quite like moments of pause within it as well. And now that's a perfect segue into ramping up to Shakespeare in a minute to talk about legacy. But just before we get there, if I may, this is the pass the golden baton moment, please. They don't like it up. And, mr mandering, but now you've experienced this from within who would you most like to pass the golden baton along? To someone in your network that you know would benefit from like or just enjoy being given a damn good listening to in this way?

Speaker 1:

andy coulson well, that's a good question. I mean, I you know. You know I've had some. If I may, I've had some guests on my podcast who I think absolutely deserve a wider audience and who you might enjoy talking to. I'm going to try and pick one, but what I am going to do, chris, is email you separately as well and make a couple of suggestions, if I might, because I know I'm only allowed.

Speaker 2:

I know I'm only allowed one here well, I've given you the rule of three many times, so please feel free. I'd be honored if you'd batten past some others as well.

Speaker 1:

That'd be lovely yeah, actually, I mean, I've touched, I've touched on him earlier. Um, I I think you should steve peters. Actually, if you don't mind, given given that I've quoted him here and taken his line and put it to work, I think I'm going to suggest Steve Peters, who is a very well-established public speaker and podcaster himself. He does not fall into the category of someone who deserves a wider although he does always deserve a wider audience. He's got a wide audience, but I think Steve would be a terrific guest. And's got a wide audience, but I think, um, I think Steve would be a terrific guest and I'd love to listen to it, that's for sure.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to furnish me with a warm introduction. Thank you very much indeed. And now, uh, inspired by Shakespeare, and, by the way, for your information, actual, what's not a first folio, but this is the shakespeare that I bought myself when I went to the bristol old big theater school, circa it says chris grimes, 16, 986, when I first trained as a actor. How marvelous. But anyway, this is now um borrow from the seven ages of man's speech all the world's superior and all the better. Women merely players. How, when all is said and done, andy uh coulson, would you most like to be remembered?

Speaker 1:

I don't know. I think that I'd like to be remembered full stop. That would be nice. I think that's the first challenge, isn't it? You want that and hopefully that's going to be the case for the people that matter most to me, but I don't know that. I dealt with, you know I dealt with what came my way. You know the ups and downs, without getting too cliched about it, I dealt with it pretty well and I improved myself along the way, which I think is the aim in life, and that, together with Eloise, you know, we've propelled, you know, three more human beings into the world, who I am certain will do, you know, a better job than I did, which is also kind of the point, I think, to play it forward, absolutely To play it forward.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, that's good enough, the point I think, to play it forward, absolutely To play it forward. So, yeah, that's good enough for me, I think.

Speaker 2:

And now, where can we find out all about you? Crisis what Crisis? Coulson Partners on the Intweb and I'm going to show the audience your QR code, please. So, first of all, just point us to. If you're not watching and therefore not able to use the QR code, just talk us to. If you're not watching and therefore not able to use the QR code, just talk us through where we can find out. Crisis what Crisis? Podcast.

Speaker 1:

Well, dead easy. I mean Crisis, what Crisis? Just stick it into wherever you get your podcasts. As the saying goes, we're on every platform. We're on YouTube if you want to watch it. I'm very lucky that we record our podcast in the LBC studio so you can see it all there in its full Technicolor. So, on YouTube. Stick that into YouTube or into any of the podcast apps that you use, and you'll find it. And the business is the website callsomepartnerscom. Just stick it in and find us. There you are, you put it up for us.

Speaker 2:

It's very good. Yes, this is a new section called show me your qr code, please. So yes, it's watching. That gives you the advantage.

Speaker 1:

Yeah it's very good and we um on the podcast from we. Obviously we, you know, we put clips out and promote and kind of share interesting bits of gold, uh, as we've been discussing on our on our instagram as well, so you're as easily found. Crisis World Crisis.

Speaker 2:

Wonderful. Any other sort of social media handles you want to sort of throw at the audience.

Speaker 1:

No, just LinkedIn is the other platform that we like I mean, you know, increasingly. I think LinkedIn is a really interesting place. It's shifting a bit. I think LinkedIn, from its original kind of I'm delighted to announce that I've landed, you know a glorious job original kind of I'm delighted to announce that I've landed you know a glorious job it seems to be, uh, I think, a more useful platform now. So we're certainly engaging more with um, we're certainly engaging more with linkedin, so you'll find me, you'll find the business there and you'll find the podcast there lovely and I posted about this very episode on my own linkedin uh profile, which is here in my own uh qr code.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, you can actually scan this yourself and if you want, I think I'm already kind of, I think I'm already connected so here comes a deliberately sort of uh, storytelling sort of coachy question. Here we go, as this has been your moment in the sunshine, in the good, listening to show stories of distinction and genius, andy coulson. Is there anything else you'd like to say?

Speaker 1:

no, I think the only the only area that, um, that does sit at the front of my mind that we haven't discussed is is is this you know, this idea of control and, uh, I'm not sure I've used that word much in this conversation, and that's always the thing. Whether I'm sat with someone you know as a, as a client, or as a friend, or as a podcast guest, actually the word control is often there, and that is for me, with the life that I've led, that's. The centerpiece for me is that I now try and look at situations, good and bad and work out what I have control of and what I don't have control of. And, of course, this is all copyright the Stoics, as we touched on earlier, and once you've and that's often because Stoicism is often characterized as being sort of unemotional that to be Stoic is sort of stiff upper lip, and that's not what it is at all.

Speaker 1:

It isn't for me. What it is is to work out what you actually have control of and what you don't have control of. Once you've done that, then you can pour all your emotion, for as much emotion as you possibly can, into the things that you have control of, and and I found that to be a very, very useful um device, if you want to look at it that way, to to kind of manage your way through difficult stuff and to be more productive. You know that's, that's the sort of centerpiece for me. So that's all I would add, chris.

Speaker 2:

Otherwise I really enjoyed the conversation and thank you for saying yes too, and also, um, you're pushing on an open door about stoicism, because my favorite favorite, uh, marcus aurelius quote is probably very familiar to you, which is appropriate for what we've been talking about but never let the future disturb you, because you will greet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against your present Spot on.

Speaker 1:

He knew what he was talking about.

Speaker 2:

He did, and in fact I subscribed to the Daily Stoic newsletter during the pandemic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, me too, Me too. Yeah. Well, Ryan Holiday's a star.

Speaker 2:

I'm trying to get Billy Oppenheimerheimer, who does the most brilliant newsletter, off the back of being. He works closely with ryan holiday. Um, right, anyway, lardy blah, exciting times. Um. So, anything else else you'd like to say, andy coulson?

Speaker 2:

no, just thank you for having me and, if you just allow me to do a quick plug for myself at the end, if you'd like to talk about being a guest to check out the good listening to showcom website, as has probably been implicit in what we've been talking about, this is the show in which I invite movers, makers, shakers, mavericks, influencers and also personal heroes heroes into a clearing or serious happy place of my guests choosing. It's been a real pleasure and privilege to talk to you and do. Thank you very much indeed and good night. You've been listening to the good listening to show with me, chris grimes.

Speaker 2:

If you'd like to be in the show too, or indeed gift an episode to capture the story of someone else with me as your host, then you can find out how care of the series strands at the good listening to showcom website and one of these series strands at the goodlistening2showcom website, and one of these series strands is called Brand Strand Founder Stories For business owners like you to be able to tell your company story, talk about your purpose and amplify your brand. Together we get into the who, the what, the how, the why you do what you do and then, crucially, we find out exactly where we can come and find you, to work with you and to book your services. Tune in next week for more stories from the clearing and don't forget to subscribe and review wherever you get your podcasts.