The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

Spinning Climate Crisis into Solution Focused Action through the Power of Storytelling & 'Climate Fiction' with Denise Baden, Professor of Sustainable Practice at Southampton University

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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A wonderful and thought-provoking voyage of discovery with Denise Baden, Professor of Sustainable Practice at Southampton University.  Denise was 'Passed the'Golden Baton' to be in the Show by previous Guest, Paul Z Jackson.

Denise is a luminary in the sustainability sphere and a pioneer in climate change discourse. She is also on the Forbes Official List as 1 of the world's top 68 Climate Leaders & Change Makers.

Listen as she reveals the intricacies of her "Green Stories" initiative, a narrative alchemy that spins the climate crisis into compelling fiction. We pivot from discussing her groundbreaking novel, "Habitat Man," to the resonating impact of her family tapestry on her bold approach to life and academia. Brace yourself for a conversation that's as enlightening as it is heartwarming.

As we wend through Denise's life story, the rich fabric of her experiences unfolds, revealing the imprints of her fearless German mother, her contrarian English father, and the personal growth spurred by early loss. Her tales weave through the halls of university, touching on the expansion of horizons and how these moments cemented her fearless spirit. Add to this the contrasting personalities of her emotionally perceptive son and her brutally honest brother, and you have a narrative that's as multifaceted as it is deeply human.

Closing our session, Denise and I spotlight the transformative power of storytelling, tipping our hats to fellow climate change harbingers like Steve Willis and Jack Klaff. These creators are using their talents to shine a light on environmental issues, inspiring change one story at a time. Join us as we traverse the emotional landscapes of family, the art of ethical writing, the Cuban ethos, and how personal passions shape our worldviews, leaving you with a bountiful harvest of inspiration and a fresh lens on the potential of stories to drive real-world impact & change.

You can also watch/listen to Denises's episode here: https://vimeo.com/chrisgrimes/denisebaden

More useful links:

https://www.dabaden.com/

https://www.greenstories.org.uk/

(2) Denise Baden | LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/denise-baden-3742793

https://twitter.com/DABadenauthor

Green Stories Project

https://habitatpress.com/

https://twitter.com/GreenstoriesUK

https://instagram.com/greenstoriessoton

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!

Chris Grimes:

Welcome to another episode of the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, Chris Grimes, the storytelling show that features the clearing, where all good questions come to get asked and all good stories come to be told, and where all my guests have two things in common they're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors a clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 5-4-3-2-1, some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare and a cake. So it's all to play for. So, yes, welcome to the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, Chris Grimes, Are you sitting comfortably here?

Chris Grimes:

Then we shall begin. Yes, indeed, and welcome, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to LinkedIn Live, if you're watching here too. This is a live recording of the Good Listening To Show Stories of Distinction in Genius. I'm delighted to welcome Denise Barden to the show, and Denise is a climate change sustainability champion. She's professor of sustainable practice at Southampton University. We're going to find out all about the story behind the story of Denise, but, Denise, welcome to the show.

Denise Baden:

Thank you, Chris. Thanks for inviting me on.

Chris Grimes:

You're extremely welcome. I'm just going to blow a bit of happy smoke at you and also just a tiny bit of context. This is the show in which I invite movers, makers, shakers, mavericks, influencers and also personal heroes into a clearing or serious happy place of my guests, choosing to all share with us their stories of distinction and genius. And I'm delighted to say that Denise was passed the golden baton by Paul Z Jackson, improvisation guru, and he's worked very closely in a solutions focus context with Denise and he said that she's extremely worth giving a damn good listening to, said this is why you're here. So if I could ask you a deliberately clunky sort of networking question that we've all got to face, denise, if somebody says, oh hello, you look interesting, what do you do? What's your favorite way of avoiding or answering that question, denise?

Denise Baden:

Okay, well, I guess at the moment I would say I'm a professor of sustainability and with a side hustle in climate fiction.

Chris Grimes:

And those are your green stories, which are incredible. I really well I know you're going to talk about those as well. And also a really important bit of happy smoke You're on the Forbes list where last count, the official Forbes list of 68. Climate, not climate changes, because that makes it sound like it's your fault, but it's called a climate leader of change.

Denise Baden:

Yes, yeah, I was delighted to find I was on that, so I think that was. I was on work I did with BAFTA on hashtag climate characters that probably got me noticed by the people who put that forward, and also the work with the green stories project.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, so just tell us a bit about the green stories project as well.

Denise Baden:

Well, I set that up in 2018 because when you're in the sustainability world, you tend to find you're very busy talking to the same people the whole time and you know I feel like I've got a good grasp you know I should do of the solutions, but trying to get them out there to the right people is a big challenge. So I set up the green storage project as a way to try and encourage writers to embed climate solutions in their stories, and I was also. This is the overlap with Paul. Actually, I was also worried that we were taking very problem focused approach and if you make people scared and they're going to switch off, go into denial. Fear and I know my background as a psychologist fear isn't necessarily going to lead us to the kind of behaviors we want. You know, we're probably more likely to buy up all the toilet rolls and stop, you know, eating beef or flying. So I thought, well, let's use fiction as a way to engage in mainstream audience.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, of course, when we're scared, there's just complete stasis and overwhelm, and some of the wonderful copy that you have on your own website you do point out the more we tend to know and find out, the scarier it becomes like the sun. You can't look at it too closely, but if you put your face to one side, you can make your own way. There is a way of putting it right, which is what your green fiction is all about.

Denise Baden:

Yeah, we've got all the solutions right here. There's not much we need to do other than probably do less.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, and tread lightly and carefully, or lightfully and mindfully, upon the earth is so doable is one of the really impactful things that you say. You're also a multi-author as well. You're working on a new book at the moment, aren't you?

Denise Baden:

I am, I am. So I've just finished one book, the Philosopher and the Assassin, which is I like to do things differently. It's a fusion of who done it, moral philosophy textbook and campus novel. So years ago, our head of school encouraged us to try and entertain students. Edutainment, which is a term that many of my colleagues like I do entertainment, so I get lovely when we but I thought, well, okay, let's give that a go.

Denise Baden:

So I'm now like I could publish it through Habitat Press, but I'm in the market for a larger publisher. Yes, well, I hope this.

Chris Grimes:

This will help sort of dangle you out there as a very attractive prospect for the publishers that are watching. And in fact you mentioned Habitat. You published a Habitat themed romcom in called Habitat man. I'd love to find out more about that. It's not a man who just goes and buys lots of furniture, obviously.

Denise Baden:

People sometimes do get that wrong. Yes, that was my first novel and it was my lockdown project and I'm always ashamed to say I had a lovely lockdown Peace, quiet, the birds were tweeting and so and that was a lovely chance to write the story and it was inspired partly by this Green Garden consultant and he'd given up his job, taken early retirement to try and make gardens wildlife friendly and you know, he told me I should put in a pond plant you know pollinator friendly plants and put up a water pot in the back box and told me to let my grass grow. And he was, I know, so inspired by him because he said I can only do a few gardens. I wish I could do the world. Oh, how lovely A book can maybe reach a lot more people. And he's had so much more since I published Habitat Math and I love that expression, your alliteration.

Chris Grimes:

Sorry your alliteration. I had a lovely lockdown. And to your point about we can all do less. That's why it was lovely, because we were forced to do less. But, as you quite rightly said, it was extraordinary. People heard the birds sing, probably for the first. I mean, they're always singing, but we can't hear the beautiful things.

Denise Baden:

I know and he taught me to see nature, to see my garden through the eyes of nature, through the eyes of bees and birds and hedgehogs, and that was a real gift he gave me and I tried to gift that to readers of the book. But I also threw in a body for him to dig up and a romance and some some fun drama there too.

Chris Grimes:

So it sounds like a bit of wind in the willows, with some extra punchy stuff about sustainability in there.

Denise Baden:

Yes, so it nearly got through to the radio before it got through to the final sort of round for choosing a comedy series, the 630 slot. Oh fantastic, I just got picked at the post, but I was very, very thrilled that it got that far I see it as a TV series. So any TV producers out there so many people have gone in contact saying this should be a TV series. Have you thought of this person, that person, as the lead role? So that's, that's my next dream.

Chris Grimes:

And, of course, with the modern new hybrid world and the fact we can all broadcast there's actually not we often have. Well, historically, we've had to wait for gatekeepers to give us permission to tell us that we've got a good idea. But even you know, today is a testament to the fact that if you've got an idea, you can start broadcasting about it.

Denise Baden:

Well, that's right, and you're completely right. The gatekeepers have gone now, so and I think mostly that's a good thing. Yes, you know pros and cons, but mostly it's a good thing.

Chris Grimes:

I agree. So it's my great privilege and delight to be able to curate you through the journey of the good. Listening to show Denise there's going to be a clearing a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called five, four, three, two, one. There'll be some alchemy, some gold, a couple of random squirrels, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare and a cake and a golden baton as a cheeky chappy chaser. So it's all to play for. So let's get you on the open road of that, if I may. So first of all, with your particular focus on sustainability, I'm fascinated to know what you're clearing or serious happy place is going to be. So where does Denise go to get clutter free, inspirational and able to think?

Denise Baden:

Oh well, this is very problematic, chris, because actually my favorite place to get clutter free and feel in the zone is bobbing around on a lovely warm sea. It's having spun so far out that all I can see is the horizon that I can pretend I'm the only person on the earth, and unfortunately that requires quite a high carbon consuming flight. So I'm going to settle for my bath. It's not ideal.

Chris Grimes:

I love the fact that it's water based and I love the scale. There we went macro, micro. There We've gone from the open ocean in the middle of nowhere, floating, and you're not on a light load by the sound of it. This is just you having done the work of swimming out.

Denise Baden:

Yes. So whoever I'm with has to sit on the shore panicking in case I drown, but I'm always incredibly confident that I can bob around forever. I'm very buoyant it's one of my assets very buoyant.

Chris Grimes:

What a lovely thing to say about myself. I had a lovely lockdown and I'm very buoyant, so it sounds like an Epson bath of salt if you're trying to float. So the Dead Sea would be quite appealing to you, I would imagine, even though it's got the warm tide.

Denise Baden:

I did try an immersion tank once. That was weird. You're literally on top of the water. You don't sink down at all.

Chris Grimes:

A previous guest, an eminent director called Faelin McDermott. He's the only guest so far to have named his serious happy places being a floatation tank. Oh right, so it's about going really deep into the float, anyway, so I love that. So are you quite sure you don't want to be in the open ocean because it's your clearing, metaphorically, so you can go where?

Denise Baden:

you want, I can magically transport myself there through a greenhouse gas emissions free flight. And, yes, let me bob around on the ocean.

Chris Grimes:

It could almost be a bit sort of owl and the pussycat Would allow you to have your bath in the middle of the ocean.

Denise Baden:

Yes, I'm going to stick with that, chris. Yes, I'm having my bath in the middle of the ocean. Why not have both?

Chris Grimes:

I absolutely love that. So that's a wonderful, wonderful clearing. So now, if I may, a bit waiting for Godo-esque and existential-y and quite surreal. I'm going to arrive with the tree. I'm going to pop up, not necessarily wearing frog gear, nor should it be scary, but I've arrived next to your bathtub, floating in the middle of the ocean. And just to give us a geographical location, whereabouts in the ocean would you like your bath to be floating?

Denise Baden:

I think this at the med the Mediterranean.

Chris Grimes:

I like that, but we're definitely going warm sea as you, blue clear sea bobbing about in your bath. Okay, so this tree now is going to shake your tree to see which storytelling apples fall out. How'd you like these apples? And this is a lovely, juicy story construct called 54321. We've had five minutes to have thought about four things that have shaped you, three things that inspire you, two things that never fail to grab your attention. And that's borrowed from the film Up to talk about squirrels. You know there's a dog that's constantly distracted by squirrels, as we all are in life, in our hectic lives. And then the one is a quicker, unusual fact about you. We couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us so you don't. It's not a memory test. I'll curate you through it, but interpret the shaking of the canopy of your tree in your bath tub in the Mediterranean as you see fit.

Denise Baden:

Okay, well, I think I have to start with my family. So my brother was well. I grew up thinking of him as mentally handicapped, but nowadays we'd say learning disabilities. But he was very uniquely himself, not down syndrome, but he couldn't really speak properly, except for swear words which came out perfectly. He was, imagine, a human being with no inhibitions. So wherever we went, he'd make our friends for us, he'd go up, he'd say hello.

Denise Baden:

The first thing you do is establish himself at a bar and get the barman to feed him Coca-Cola's all day long. But at the same time he was hugely embarrassing. So you know he would hug someone if he didn't like them. He'd tell them to f off. He. You know he would do whatever he wanted at any one time, and I adored him. But I think I grew up immune to being embarrassed. So that's a lot of people say, oh, how can you let you, how can you do this, how can you do that? And I just think I stood by where my brothers decided to take a week in the middle of the street. This isn't going to bother me. And so my mother also was half German and I don't know. I mean, I'm allowed to stare at no my mom was German.

Denise Baden:

I'm allowed to stare it up. Some half German. I'm going to claim that right.

Chris Grimes:

Yes.

Denise Baden:

But like a lot of German people I've met, she was brutally honest, I mean really brutally honest.

Chris Grimes:

And there's a lovely through line of bluntness here, as in your brother with filter. If I may just ask, before we keep talking about your mother, you mentioned him. I couldn't help hearing in the past tense there, is he still with us?

Denise Baden:

Oh, yes. Well, that leads on to my last.

Chris Grimes:

Oh, sorry, sorry, I'll come to that, apologies.

Denise Baden:

No, my mother also was half German, very charming, very blunt and a little bit outside of her comfort zone in England because she married an Englishman and then having a son that really restrained, you know, restricted her freedom and so and my dad was just a maverick. He came from a long line of first sons who'd upset their father and got cut out of the will so and then made it a fresh himself, thinking so do you all. So I grew up with an absolutely quite a charismatic but very odd family, all quite uniquely individual, and I think it's made me kind of not too embarrassed about things. I didn't realise I wasn't too embarrassed about things until I met people who were yes.

Denise Baden:

So my current partners constantly sort of say well, did you notice this? Or you know, you may have come across that this person was thinking this and I just didn't notice.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, and was your? Was your brother diagnosed with Tourette's? Is that where the swearing?

Denise Baden:

came from and we're not quite sure what it was. By the way, I already like.

Chris Grimes:

I already like the sound of him because he's just monumentally honest and present.

Denise Baden:

Monumentally honest. Yeah, he was very uniquely himself, so I'm not quite sure where he fit, yeah, and so it was a very individual family, and so it made me feel that I didn't have to necessarily conform to any expectations, and just being myself was enough, really. So I think, that gave me wasn't until quite recently. I thought about the impact that had had on me because I'm just I'm probably going to be a grandma soon. Things are.

Chris Grimes:

Congratulations.

Denise Baden:

And I'm just realising that I'm not so worried. When I was about to become a parent, I didn't even realise till recently that I was actually quite worried, just in case, and so I sort of kept a bit of myself back until you know, all was safe. It's so lovely to sort of see my son, so look forward to it without that worry, that fear.

Denise Baden:

And sometimes you don't realise, you're scared till it's gone, or you see someone else who isn't and has that, through line of directness, passed the generation down to your own son as well? Well, no, he's. He's got a very high sense of emotional intelligence and sensitivity to everyone's feelings. He's completely the other way. So maybe to compensate for his mum.

Chris Grimes:

This is lovely shape it so far, so keep going.

Denise Baden:

And I think another one would be and this refers back is death. He died in his early forties, far too young. It's on a very, very hot day. It's a heart attack. I was just about to go on holiday actually. I was called back from the airport and I was there as he died. I'm so glad I was, and my mum died a couple of years ago. My dad died a little bit earlier than I would have liked, and a lot of my early friends.

Denise Baden:

I've had a lot of death. I think is what I'm saying. Chris, my best friend. I went travelling to India. When I came back after university he was dead in a car crash. And another my best friend lost her husband and her daughter. There's been a lot of people and I can't watch early videos now. So my son's first birthday because so many people from various means.

Denise Baden:

And this isn't going to be too grim, because for a while it was very grim and I got paranoid. I think that people I cared about would die. But then it actually led to me being utterly fearless Because anything, I thought well, is anyone going to die? No well then, I'm not bothered, and so I think I've managed to seize the moment in a carpe diem. It's really hammered into you when you lose people, you don't sit around, you don't waste time. You get on with it and there's no reason to be scared.

Chris Grimes:

That's very relatable because of my own love of stoic philosophy, the ancient wisdoms of way back, when it's not society's first rodeo, and death is a constant, as is life until it isn't.

Denise Baden:

So I think that's been one of the reasons why I've managed to do a lot of things I wouldn't have done, because I just didn't mess around. My dog is battering at the door, wanting to let me. Let her in.

Chris Grimes:

I love that. Signs of real life going on in the background which, by the way, in the early pandemic, john Lewis were brilliant because they said in the background on zoom, yeah, that was a lot of sin.

Denise Baden:

wasn't it about the pandemic? You saw people's home lives and people stopped pretending they didn't have home lives, or children or dogs.

Chris Grimes:

And your dog is now successfully. What's your dog's name? Quick mention for your dog. She's gorgeous, lily, did you say?

Denise Baden:

Yes, lily, yes, my daughter's name, my daughter's name my daughter's name Lily. It's a cool name, but Lily makes her way into Habitat man. You know, renamed for her own protection, but as the gorgeous dog in Habitat man.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely, and I'm glad she's inside now. That's good. Back to you.

Denise Baden:

So let's see, we've done my family, we've done death. I think another thing probably affected me was my university days, because I grew up in quite a small village, quite quite narrow minded, actually Nice people, but I always felt a bit of an outsider, not just because of my old family, but I really cared about the world and I had opinions on things and and everyone used to say, oh, you're odd, you ought to meet this other odd person, and they'd be a complete nutter. And I think I shouldn't be odd. I don't think I am odd, I just think this is a very insular environment.

Chris Grimes:

Yes.

Denise Baden:

And the moment I went to university I met all kinds of people with all kinds of opinions, all kinds of backgrounds. You know religious people, political people, you know people passionate about a cause, you know gay people, all kinds. So it was just so nice and I made such good friends and because I'd grown up feeling like I didn't quite fit in, or people like me because I was odd, to actually meet people who didn't think I was odd, it's made me really value the friendships I have.

Chris Grimes:

There is such power, as we know in society, in being an outlier, because outliers are the best change makers, because they have a super objective perspective, because they're not doing what everybody else is doing, they're thinking differently. So actually being an outlier is more of an agile way of being, I would say.

Denise Baden:

Yeah, I like the intellectual stimulation, the ideas, the debates, and I met some people there in a comedy group and we wrote pantos and sketch shows and so on. I think they were hilarious things, so funny, so that shaped me for sure. I mean we had a group of people who took a lot of pride in being mean funny, if you know what I mean. But it was a measure of how accepted you were by how rude they felt they were able to be to you.

Chris Grimes:

So sort of inverse of British politeness you don't have to name the genre of that as mean funny, you know if it's bit spiteful or angry.

Denise Baden:

I don't think anyone would ever have pushed it if they thought someone was getting really hurt if they touched the nerve but yes.

Chris Grimes:

It was pushing the boundaries.

Denise Baden:

That's right.

Denise Baden:

And so that's quite fun. And then I think the next thing that shaped me a lot towards the life I have now was a partner of mine, an ex-partner now, but what he, the legacy he left to me, was at the time I knew him, he was doing a course in media and he had to write screenplays and he watched all these films and deconstructed them for me and we wrote screenplays and then we wrote one together called Nickers, and I loved it so much. It was actually based on a true story because I was a single mother at the time and I was trying to work out how to make ends meet and I had all these clothes that I used to have when I was working but I couldn't quite still doing as a mum and I'd gone back to university. So I thought, well, I'll sell them off. And this chap arrived and he wanted my dirty luxury. He was prepared to pay a lot and I thought, hello, this is a great little cottage industry.

Denise Baden:

I didn't, but it did strike music. It was a nice idea for a film. I mean, it's been nicked now by Oranges, the new black, They've got that spot in there. But we wrote it and they didn't like it. They didn't know about it, but they British screen liked it.

Chris Grimes:

We took it to British screen and they there's a piece of work called Denise Barden's knickers.

Denise Baden:

out there Is there not publicly available, but it's a one.

Chris Grimes:

But just to go to the dark side, just sorry, somebody turned up wanting not just your knickers but all the dirty washing.

Denise Baden:

Well, no, I mean, I said that just to spare the blushes of your viewers. They wanted my dirty pants, yes. I didn't realize that straight away, I was showing them dresses and suits, they were completely uninterested. And it's this big bloke and I was like I'm unbored minded, all right. But then it turned out, you know, he had quite specific interests. I don't know, maybe I'd accidentally put some term in my ad that sort of had a double.

Chris Grimes:

Your brother should have been around to sort of give him short shrift and show you. Give him a hug, Tell him to yeah he would have. He would have.

Denise Baden:

So that was my first sort of taste of writing, actually writing that up, and we did get. We would have got success. But then there was government cutbacks, British screen loss their funding and I decided to throw myself into academic writing, which gave it so proper job. But I've returned to writing now and but I think it was, it was it was my ex-partner there who sort of got me on the road.

Chris Grimes:

And he's still with us. By the sound of it, I know there was a lot of death. It wasn't like you. Yes, you.

Denise Baden:

You don't do more. No no.

Chris Grimes:

Important to clarify that. Thank you what's official, I think. Now we're on to three things that inspire you, and thank you for those delicious shape edges.

Denise Baden:

Well, actually I was going to talk about Habitat man, but I mentioned him, so what I will do is mention Dave Goulson. Now he's a professor of biology at Sussex University. He set up the Bumblebee Conservation Trust and he's written loads of lovely books, such as the Garden and Jungle how to Save the Planet through Gardening, and he's got this lovely manner and the lovely way that my own Green Garden consultant had of seeing the world through insects eyes and opening your eyes to a whole different way of viewing it. So rather than say you know, pests decide to kill every pest, he says well, so what if they have a nibble? They're part of the ecosystem.

Chris Grimes:

Absolutely.

Denise Baden:

Yeah, you know a plant that is meant to be in that environment will survive that fine. And he really gets over the fact that when you use pesticides you're killing the predators of the pests as well, and the pests will reproduce faster than the predators, so actually you're creating a problem for yourself. Yes, and he was kind enough to read Habitat man and he went through every bit of it, checking the ecological information. He suggested the old, very lyrical passage himself, and so while the original Green Garden consultant his name should remain anonymous gave me the idea I think it was Dave Goulson giving me the confidence that actually the idea worked, that he someone I admire hugely thought it was really good and really enjoyed reading it. So you know, I don't think I would have written it without that sort of approbation, that sort of confidence boosting.

Chris Grimes:

And I love the expression. Looking at the world through insects eyes, so presumably compound eyes gives you a sort of multifaceted way of looking at the world.

Denise Baden:

Yes, yes, exactly, and I like honeycomb of perspectives, almost yes, yeah. And I. One of the things that I think people have said from reading it is they, too, have learned to see it in that way. It's just a different perspective. So, with regard to what people can actually, do to help save the environment.

Chris Grimes:

There was something rather humorous pointed recently where someone said I'm making my own small contribution by rewilding my sitting room. Excuse to never do any dusting or hoovering ever again. Well, my God, it's pretty wild. Yeah, I definitely love that.

Denise Baden:

And it's the low time option, so, but yeah, that was good, so I was very, very pleased about that. Another inspiration would be another writer, actually James Graham Now I don't know if you come across him.

Denise Baden:

He wrote Sherwood, which was BBC series, where it's set in a miners village and there's a murder and he alternates between the 80s miners strike in today and the divisions between the miners and the scabs. And he's done a number of works like that. He did one in Brexit. I think it's called an uncivil war. I just saw a play of his Dear England about Gareth. Oh, okay.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, yes, yes.

Denise Baden:

Yes letter to the country during and and. The constant theme in his work is taking divisions in society and showing you perspective from different perspectives. So once you've watched it, you go away feeling uplifted and just kinder.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, lovely, and.

Denise Baden:

I mean he would be great to have on the show but you'd be a coup to get him. But he's got a lovely story because he apparently grew up in a mining village. One parent was very left wing and a minor Another parent was very right wing and they got divorced and dad moved next door and I just picture this little boy trying desperately to sort of stop the arguments and bring them together. And he's doing that now with with his fiction.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, lovely, have you met him or you love to, because?

Denise Baden:

he's the writer I admire the most and just say his name once again.

Chris Grimes:

I know I've got Sherwood in my head, but it's David James Graham, james Graham.

Denise Baden:

Everything he's done has been brilliant A lot of plays, a lot of screenplays, really nice on assuming chap as well. I saw him in an interview and that's exactly what I'm trying to do, I guess, is look at the issues in the world and for me, a lot of it's about climate and loss of nature and biodiversity. I'm thinking how can I write the solutions into a story and leave readers feeling happy, not scared? And empowered and entertained and educated. That's a nice idea for that, I think.

Chris Grimes:

And for both of our what I'll do for both of us. I'll try, I'll send him this link, this clip of you talking about him and how much you admire him, and I hope you get to meet him and I hope I get to interview him. He sounds wonderful. And third inspiration Right.

Denise Baden:

So my third inspiration would be the Cuban people. So I talked for a long time business ethics, and one of the things that worried me a lot of the time is how easy is it actually for a business to be genuinely ethical or sustainable within a competitive free market economy? Because if you're the only one paying decent wages and others in your sector paying sweatshop wages and you are responsible to the shareholders, how much freedom of movement do you really have? And also, we need to be consuming yet less to live within our planetary means, but businesses make money from selling more and persuading us to buy more more than we need really. So I thought I'd love to see a country which has a completely different system and see how that works. So I went to Cuba and I've done some research in the England, talked to people about whether social responsibility or ethics or sustainability conflicted with profit, and I got lots of really good interviews when I went to Cuba and I was speaking to social enterprises. So then, it's mostly social enterprises or businesses that have partnered with the government.

Chris Grimes:

Yeah.

Denise Baden:

And they didn't understand the question and that was so interesting. They said well, we are an enterprise to serve our society, why would we do anything?

Chris Grimes:

And what's the question? I heard you.

Denise Baden:

Yeah, are there any tensions between being socially responsible or sustainable and society or ethics or profit? So the tensions between profit and society really? And they didn't really understand the question. And I went to one organic gardening company, an organic farm. They have to be organic because of the embargo, which means they can't get access to any chemicals. But they said now they're very glad they're organic because actually it's better. And I asked them how they price their products and they said well, you know. I said does the government specify the price? And they said there's a price you can't go above, but within that it's just supply and demand. So I said well, does supply exceed demand or demand exceed supply? They said no, demand exceeds supply. I said so is the price at the highest level? No, no, we already earn twice as much as the community most in the community earn. Why would we price it higher?

Chris Grimes:

There's an absolute.

Denise Baden:

The initial of two was as much as they felt they could stomach in terms of their notions of what was fair and just.

Chris Grimes:

I was just going to say there's a societal absence of greed, which is the big difference.

Denise Baden:

Yes, and it's the since, the cute. I mean. There was a Cuban revolution at the end of the 50s, led by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara, and many of the older people said to me we would not be here Because of the corruption and the ill health and lack of education. From that I had an education. I have access to health. Um, I went there a second time with a colleague of mine who works in public health because she was interested to see why they were, were probably more innovative in their drugs and treatments than we were in the west, despite being really poor. And it's because they're metric of success. Is health Not profit? And it's actually not that profitable to invest money in drugs that are difficult to manufacture.

Denise Baden:

It's much easier to make versions of drugs we already have that are maybe marginally different. So, um, I found it very hard to publish because there's this. I did that. Anything in Cuba is bad Because it's not a democracy.

Chris Grimes:

I was going to ask if you'd published the paper because it sounds like the Cuban way. I know you probably thought of your own title, but the Cuban way is a gift to us all, I would say.

Denise Baden:

If it's all about a lack of greed, no, I couldn't get it published and it turned out that's a Cuban curse. So for the first time ever, I had reviewers like it. The editor overruled it and I've never had that before. And the other one was saying no, because Fidel Castro is a brutal dictator who ruined the lives of his people, and it's like well A, we haven't mentioned him in the paper.

Chris Grimes:

And.

Denise Baden:

B. That wasn't the impression I was getting from the Cuban people and you know they weren't this oppressed. You know brainwashed group I'd been led to to believe and I learned a lot about their medic the international solidarity. So anytime there's any medical emergency the Cuban doctors will go out there. So we missed a load because they're all off treating Ebola. So for a country that's so poor to be so generous yes, it's, it's medical aid and it just seemed that spirit of solidarity and fortitude. Um was inspiring.

Denise Baden:

And my sons I had my son at the time I took them with me on the second trip and they were old enough then to wander around by themselves and he took his guitar and him and his younger brother would walk up and down the Havana Boulevard by the sea and he said they were followed by by Cuban sort of young people and he gave everything away and they'd show him places and then demand money and he was beginning to get a little bit cynical. And on the last day, um, the same thing was happening. He said I'm sorry, I would love to have a drink and buy you a drink, but I'm broke, um, and they said I'll come and we'll take you for a drink and he was blown away by that and he didn't really understand that in Cuba the one who has the money pays is just the norm, right yes, it does make complete sense and with the socio-political resistance, you being able to publish because of what we talked about at the beginning, now we can publish anyway, so I hope you've published something in any case.

Denise Baden:

Um, well, I have found it quite hard to publish. But, um, I did do a musical called Fidel Um, where I um, I was for a while in impresario, which is such a grand title, but I did it as a competition where school kids wrote songs for a musical about Fidel because it's on the curriculum there.

Denise Baden:

Yeah, so, and then we put it on in Southampton, we put it on in London and I'd have loved to take it further because it was such a lovely project, but it's so, musicals are so expensive and time consuming and you know, um, I had a full-time job and so, um, there's only so far I could go down that line very talented, because even if I thought, oh, I'll write a musical, I just know I couldn't.

Denise Baden:

I didn't get the music. I'm no talent with music. No, it was fun, good fun. So it's a mystery, yes, and I'm glad it has an outlet and had an outlet.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely to get uh children involved, because that's where you know the children are the future and lardy blah, as we know, beautiful stuff. Now to uh squirrels. Now, what are your squirrels of distraction? What squirrels never fails to grab your attention? I'm assuming it may be client climate related, but we can find out. So what are your squirrels? Or monsters of distraction?

Denise Baden:

Uh no, they're not climate related at all, actually. Uh, any ways. Sure Um so my partner gets mad at me anytime I go anywhere. If I see a little alleyway heading off, I have to go down it. Um, I just find them intriguing. So you know, sometimes you end up in the sort of nowhere, quite often somewhere. You end up somewhere that looks a bit dodgy, but sometimes you find a little cut through to somewhere lovely that you never would have seen. So it's the mystery Of any ways is I love that.

Chris Grimes:

Where one prefers to go. Have you heard it called a desire lines before? No, I haven't. So in a park, when the. When the municipal powers that be say this is the path, you'll invariably see lots of trails off to the grass somewhere else, and those desire lines, and so I. Your own private desire lines are the byways and alleyways of Denise. But that's a lovely Squirrel.

Denise Baden:

Um, and another squirrel is music. I think if ever I hear a bar Of music wherever I'm, like a passer doorway, um, I'm transfixed. And there's a couple of examples the woman I grew up in my little village. I was so bored as a teenager I used to pace up and down the young so bored, where his life and I just walk around the village and if ever I heard music coming from a house or even a party, I'd be like, you know the, the kid at the shot window.

Chris Grimes:

You're the world's best gatecrusher. I love that. I love that.

Denise Baden:

And um, and when I traveled around around India after university At the time, all they had was this high-pitched singing by latin mangeshkar. So bollywood film music.

Denise Baden:

Everywhere you went, it was bollywood film music and um and I remember one time we'd gone on this big train right to the middle of nowhere and there were these some girls on the train and they offered to sing us some hindi folk songs. So they did and it wasn't hot. You know, bollywood music was all about how they didn't want to be loved just for their, their dowries. And then they asked us to sing a song and and I realized the dearth of our musical culture, because I could not think of one Song that I knew all the words to, but they were very insistent. So in the end we there was any one song we both knew the words to and you will never guess what it is.

Chris Grimes:

Sorry, mike, the comedian in me is going nearly the infant which would be.

Denise Baden:

It's worse than it was bohemian rhapsody.

Chris Grimes:

Mama God, so you went for a bit long one, then. That's a bit of a whole thing.

Denise Baden:

The whole train clustered into our carriage and we're doing the head banging. It was, it was very commend you for that.

Chris Grimes:

So singing bohemian rhapsody as a payback for please don't love us, just for our dowries.

Denise Baden:

But then we um so walking along the streets of some city and I heard pink floyd wish you were here, come from this basement. And it was the first proper western music I'd heard. I'd been there three months and it wasn't. You know, it was a guitar and I'd want to do a riff. Now I'll, I'll spare you, but, um, it was just home. And that was the moment I got home sick and I had to go in that bar and my partner's saying I don't think it's okay to go in that bar. It looks dodgy and it's, but it's calling to me.

Chris Grimes:

As are the alleyways, and I have to ask you what's your favorite alleyway that you stumbled down?

Denise Baden:

Oh, um, oh gosh, I think it was probably. It was probably one in cuba actually. Well, I ended up at a side of bar where we actually concocted the plan for fidel the musical.

Chris Grimes:

Now that I asked that question. That question was meant to be. It was it was, and now.

Denise Baden:

I was gonna say so pink floyd. We ended up in this bar where I was the only I was only a girl at the time. I was like this sort of 20 year old girl in the den full of, like you know, middle-aged, and I got some looks, but I sat and enjoyed the music.

Chris Grimes:

And now the final number one is now quirky or unusual fact about you denise that we couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us.

Denise Baden:

Uh well, it won't surprise you, I get lost a lot.

Chris Grimes:

Because you're just always interested in the in the alleyways and byways of denise bar.

Denise Baden:

And if you go on a walk with me, you will get lost. So that's someone. Only someone who knows me would know that.

Chris Grimes:

Is that because you're not blessed with a great gps instinct?

Denise Baden:

I think I am Um, but it's probably all. Following these alleyways and byways, I will go off on paths if I see them.

Chris Grimes:

And with the trail of breadcrumbs, you'll always find your way back, I'm sure, which is lovely. So we've shaken your tree, hurrah. Next, we stay in the clearing, move away from the tree, and now we're talking about alchemy and gold. When you're at purpose and in flow, here's a bar of gold for you. What are you absolutely happiest doing in what you're here to reveal to the world?

Denise Baden:

Oh, playing God with my characters. So I feel so helpless to do so much about the world. But with my characters they come alive for me. And when you've got a plot point you think, well, how can I manage this without that? Or how can I get this over without being clunky or boring, or how can I reveal this backstory in a way that's really fun? When you hit upon the solution, there's this moment of joy where it all comes together, and quite often dog walkers locally will see me cackling to myself.

Denise Baden:

I remember the Habitat man I was talking how do I reveal his backstory? And I had him daydreaming about being a mastermind contestant where he asked to answer questions and the questions get more and more personal. How have you ended up in this position? And it was a lovely way, because I you know it's the kind of thing people dream about, and it was such a fun way to reveal backstory and immediately the massively clunky chapter I'd written that tried to do the same thing. I'd managed to do it in one fun scene and I was just so happy. You know, there's no thrill like it when you know you've done good.

Chris Grimes:

That's a lovely answer to the Alchemy in Gold, and now I'm going to award you with a cake, and this is how to find it. So do you like cake, denise?

Denise Baden:

Because I like cake so much that I once led the happy birthday chant at a party where I didn't know the host, just to get my hands on the birthday cake.

Chris Grimes:

By the way, hot off the press, I've got a new series strand coming up which is about the big birthday show, so anyone with a big birthday coming up. So that's lovely that you love cake and it's about birthday cake as well, which is an accident. So the birthday cake is yours and we'll put a bit of a cherry on the cake now with stuff like what's a favourite inspirational quote that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future.

Denise Baden:

Okay, I think one is a friend of mine said if you want to be miserable, think about yourself. And it's a bit of a Buddhist philosophy as well, and I like it because it works. Not because I'm especially moral person, it actually works. And whenever I kind of get sunken gloom or anything like that, I say that to myself and I look outwards and immediately I'm engaged in the world again and with other people around me and I'm happier.

Chris Grimes:

So it is a very, very clever construct, I have to say, because it sounds like it's totally introspective and a bit doomy, but actually it's inviting you to do the exact yin yang opposite. So just say the quote one more time.

Denise Baden:

If you want to be miserable, think about yourself.

Chris Grimes:

Yes, I love that. Invoke you to not be so flipping selfish. It's all about our sits, all about the rest of the world. The participants within it Love that. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Denise Baden:

Oh, okay, yeah, this was someone that I met at university, really nice chap. I never quite got to know, but I remember one time we just sat on a wall, I don't know, waiting for the same bus or something, and I confided in him my sense of being responsible for the world's ills and being worried about the world and feeling so powerless to make a difference. And he said I think about it as throwing a pebble in a pond the ripples. You are the pebble. All you can do is control your ripples. So you can create ripples by what you buy, by how you vote, by what you put out in the world, by how you treat people, and you are responsible for that. And that was doable. I can manage my own ripples not always, but you know it's something I feel I've got control over and I that, whenever I feel helpless in the face of everything, I just think as long as my ripples are all right, that's all I can do.

Chris Grimes:

And the man on the wall. Do you remember his name?

Denise Baden:

Martin Martin.

Chris Grimes:

Boy on the wall. Sorry, the boy on the wall.

Denise Baden:

I can't remember his surname, but he was a Martin.

Chris Grimes:

So lovely is it when someone says something that you'll never forget, and that was that moment waiting for that bus. How old do you think you were when you had given that advice?

Denise Baden:

I was probably my mid 20s, maybe something like that, because I'd met up accidentally after university. We just bumped into each other.

Chris Grimes:

And did you tell him that you remember the thing, the conversation on the wall.

Denise Baden:

No, I never saw him again.

Chris Grimes:

Some people appear in the moment as spontaneous angels to us, don't they With the beautiful gift of hindsight? Now, what notes, help or advice might you offer or profit to a younger version of Denise?

Denise Baden:

I would say, know your level of competence. So when I was young I was so convinced I knew everything, so convinced I knew better than everyone else. And I look back now and I shudder how oblivious I was to so much. I'm sure a lot of us feel that way and I really should have been more humble.

Chris Grimes:

There is that adage, isn't there? Children of a particular age should leave home now, whilst they know everything.

Denise Baden:

I think how quickly I dismissed all the very wise advice my mum and dad gave me. Oh, it was awful. And now, I think about 10 years ago, I realised the opposite. I should know my competence and it was at a gig I was doing. So another thing I do is I've got a project on sustainable hairdressing and I was doing a sustainable hairdressing event in Malta. The person was trying to tell me how to run the event and I know what works and I was like I think probably they saw perhaps that and they ignored me and it didn't really work out and not enough people came and a friend who'd accompanied me said Denise, you know your stuff. If they don't listen to you, we've got a full turnout. You know you should be more confident.

Denise Baden:

You know you're the expert and I realised that I should stop giving way to people who are less competent than me to actually realise where my area of expertise is and where it isn't, and stand up for myself when I think I know more than the person in front of me. So it's just about getting it right. You know, sometimes you overshoot, sometimes you undershoot, but that was a bit of a turning point for me. I thought. No, I think I can speak more confidently on this now. Or at least I don't know everything I know, what I don't know, and I don't think they know it either.

Chris Grimes:

I really enjoyed that. The idea of knowing your level of confidence isn't a humility piece necessarily, because sometimes you know you know more than the person standing next to you, and that's the time to be discerning about the battle in life that's worth fighting.

Denise Baden:

Exactly yeah.

Chris Grimes:

Just tell me a bit more about what a sustainable hairdressing event is, because it's quite an intriguing hook.

Denise Baden:

Well, again, the same reason I went into fiction was the same reason I went into sustainable hairdressing because actually washing hair can be quite a high impact activity, because hot water is very energy intensive. So I was very interested because hairdressers talk to more people than probably any other profession about an activity that can be quite high in resource. So a hairdressing event is really engaging hairdressers in. You know you don't need to shampoo, rinse and repeat, unless in rare occasions you can use low flow showerheads. You can advise your clients about things like leave and conditioner or dry shampoo, both of which are great for fine flyaway hair. So, just in practices, enable you to have great hair, but with less time, less money, less energy, less water, less impact on the planet.

Chris Grimes:

Thank you. And now we're ramping up to a bit of Shakespeare. But just before we get there, this is the past. The golden baton moment, please. So now you've experienced this from within, who, denise, would you most like to pass the golden baton along to? To keep the golden thread of the storytelling going?

Denise Baden:

Oh, I don't know, can I pick two?

Chris Grimes:

Yes, no, if you can't, you're welcome. I love that.

Denise Baden:

Okay, well, one chap is Steve Willis and he's he's a wonderfully individual and lovely chap. He's a chemical engineer, stroke climate fiction writer and like me, he feels that he knows a lot of the solutions out there. He wants to get them out there. So he does this lucid dreaming and he wakes up in the middle of the night and he writes it all down and he's entered a few of my green story competitions saying Denise this is brilliant, you know.

Denise Baden:

Publish this. Actually he's. You know he's writing sorry, steve has a particular style that perhaps isn't mainstream. What we did do is we came up with this idea of teaming climate experts like himself with experienced writers to create stories and books that you know were both entertaining, brilliantly written, would engage readers and also had climate solutions. So we did one called no More Fairy Tales Stories to Save Our Planet.

Chris Grimes:

Yeah, kim Stanley.

Denise Baden:

Robinson, who's a very well known and feel contributed since the chapters.

Denise Baden:

And I went to COP 28 with him and he showed me the world through engineer's eyes, which again was very interesting, just like it's interesting to see it through animals' eyes, you know, and I understood how the air conditioning was working and which projects people were talking about were likely to work and which clearly wouldn't. Or, you know, solve one problem by creating another. And he's just. He's worked with another author, jan Lee, and they've got a new book coming up now, fairhaven, coming out in a week's time. So, which is, I think, the best of both worlds. He's got his climate expertise, her writing ability.

Chris Grimes:

It's such a lovely. It's such a lovely testament to the nature of true collaboration. By the way, you don't need to know all the answers. You might need to know the golden nugget that needs to be part of the equation of the answer, but then you partner with others who can help you bring that to fruition. That's the joy of proper teamwork to make the dream work, I think, through the art of collaboration and this passion really comes through it.

Denise Baden:

So I love that mixture of an engineer who is, at heart, a storyteller.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely. So that was Stephen Willis who said, didn't you?

Denise Baden:

Yeah, Steve Willis.

Chris Grimes:

And baton. Pass number two, please, when he's offering two.

Denise Baden:

Well, I want to give a little shout out to Jack Claff. So he's an actor. He's been in all kinds of things. He's been on the early Star Wars, he was in Poirot, he was in one of the Sherlock Holmes ones the English and he's a South African actor and he's a proper actor, darling.

Chris Grimes:

And he's a friend of yours, is he?

Denise Baden:

Oh, coming a friend. I kind of know him indirectly. Paul, who does Jackson, who you had in your show, introduced me to Martin Buckley, who's a film editor and journalist, who's good mates with Jack Claff, and he heard about a theater project I was doing Murder in the Citizen's Jury where we tried to engage the audience in climate solutions. So it's about eight people in a citizen's assembly debating climate solutions and then there's a murder and then the director of public prosecutions has to decide, you know, whether to prosecute and we kind of engaged the audience in that. I've got a sort of dramatic one monologue version and Jack Claff is doing it in April, 20th of April, so I'll give you the link to that, but it's on our Green Stories webpage. I have a delicious punchline for you.

Chris Grimes:

He has in the early days of the podcast. He was one of my first guests because of my coming to the Bristol Ulbic Theatre School and Jack Claff, and it was a wonderful episode and this will be the perfect reason to go back and bring him for a second pass through the clearing, which some guests have done.

Denise Baden:

Well, I made it to the entertaining for you. He's got a wonderful voice and he's done so much other than acting as well.

Chris Grimes:

So, jack, I'm coming for you again and it's wonderful because this, this program, has so moved on tremendously since his first appearance. He was fascinating and he's a brilliant man, so I'm thrilled and delighted and that's given me a wonderful reason to go back to him. Thank you so much. And now, inspired by Shakespeare and all the world's, a stage and all the bearded women really players. This is Borough from Jake Weas and, as you like it to talk about legacy and the Seven Ages of man Strait Woman. So, when all is said and done, how, denise, would you most like to be remembered?

Denise Baden:

Well, I got stuck on this because legacy, I guess I think would be my books and so, for example, I know Habitat man inspired quite a few people to do natural burials because I have a natural burial scene and that's a lovely legacy already.

Denise Baden:

It's already made it worthwhile, because I wrote that when my mom was dying and we had a natural burial and it was all a willow, coffin and plant a tree and you know, no chemicals in there, and I think that the fact that that went into my writing and other people picked up on that and emailed me saying they'd done that too, really I don't feel my heart with joy, really, and help redeem all the sorrow that I think went into that. But also, in terms of remembered, I only really mind if I'm remembered, how I'm remembered by the people who know me personally, and I know from my own experiences of death how people died, where you were with them before they died. You know how many loose ends that you wish you'd said or were they not. That's what enables you to think about them, either with a smile on your face or a sense of real ache, and I would just want everyone to remember me with a smile on my face, with a smile on their face. So.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely. Where can we find out all about you and your wonderful work as Professor of Sustainability at Southampton University? Denise, Denise, pardon.

Denise Baden:

OK, so my website is dabedoncom.

Chris Grimes:

And I'm so sorry, by the way. I've had that 50-50 chance of Baden Barden all the way through in my head and I've been. I hope I'm getting it right. So it's Baden, Is that right?

Denise Baden:

It is Baden.

Chris Grimes:

yes, I'm so sorry, Baden, Baden, Baden. It is definitely Baden, Forgive me.

Denise Baden:

And my big project, I guess, is thegreenstoriesorguk. All the projects are there and the events and the publications and the play, so it's all on that as well, and we do writing competitions as well, so that's a good place to find out what's going on.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely so, Denise Baden, as this has been your moment, your moment of In the sunshine of the Good Listening 2 show. Is there anything else you'd like to say?

Denise Baden:

No other than thank you for giving me a jolly good listening to. It's been fun.

Chris Grimes:

My absolute pleasure. You've been an absolute delight, and thank you for those wonderful Golden Batten passes too. So thank you for watching. Also, on LinkedIn, this has been Denise Baden from Southampton University, and if you'd like to be in the show too, then have a look at the website at thegoodlistening2showcom, and there are many serious strands which will make it really clear how you go about doing that. Also, apart from being a LinkedIn live, we pull it into the UK Health Radio Show version, and that will give you an audience reach across 54 countries of about 1.3 million and growing. Hurrah, so very much looking forward to bringing you into that space too. Thank you so much for being here, denise. Anything else you'd like to say now? No, I'm done. Thank you and drop the mic. Goodnight.

Chris Grimes:

You've been listening to the Good Listening to Show here on UK Health Radio with me, chris Grimes oh, it's my son. If you've enjoyed the show, then please do tune in next week to listen to more stories from the Clearing. If you'd like to connect with me on LinkedIn, then please do so. There's also a dedicated Facebook group for the show too. You can contact me about the programme, or, if you'd be interested in experiencing some personal impact coaching with me. You can carry my level up your impact programme. That's chrisatsecondcurveuk On Twitter and Instagram. It's At that, chris Grimes.

Chris Grimes:

So until next time for me, chris Grimes, from UK Health Radio. I'm from Stan, to your good health and goodbye. So, denise Baden, I'm so sorry about saying bad and bacon, bad and boon all the way through, because I'd got myself stuck in that cleft stick of whether I'm getting it. I had a 50-50 chance and I kept cocking it up. So, as you've just been given a Good Listening to, could I just get your immediate feedback on what it felt like to be in this structure of this show? I'm just interested in what guests think.

Denise Baden:

I really Well, it's enjoyable and it does make you really think actually about what's important to you and what made you and what mattered. And it made me think about, you know, martin, who hadn't seen for I don't know 25 years, and wondering how he's doing. So it's this nice sense that it's sort of you know, you get a sense of where you've come from, which we probably don't think about that often. So I've enjoyed it, thank you.

Chris Grimes:

I hope you can seek him out and work out where he is, because I think it is worth remembering that I mean what's so lovely about it.

Denise Baden:

I'm learning.

Chris Grimes:

Ah, martin, the boy on the wall. I heard it. I know you were in your mid-20s when you were first describing it. I imagined a 14-15-year-old version of you sitting on a wall. Yeah, two wonderful people sitting on a wall the man, the boy and the girl, but he's yes. So if Martin's out there listening, you can get in touch with these, because I think that's a lovely conversation to finish and have together Closure right there. Thank you so much. That was a real delight. Thank you.