The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

151 Unlocking Authentic Creativity: Ivor Novello Award-Winning Composer Renell Shaw on Music, Martial Arts & Finding His True 'Jazz State'

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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What happens when you combine the power of music, visual art, and the lessons learned from martial arts? You’ll find out in our conversation with the extraordinary Renell Shaw, an Ivor Novello award-winning composer, songwriter, and music producer. Renell takes us on a fascinating journey through his life and creative process, revealing how he uses a daily walk to clear his mind and let his music emerge authentically.

You can also Watch Listen to Renell's interview here:

https://vimeo.com/833613312

Renell’s diverse influences, including theatre, martial arts, and mentorships, have not only shaped his personal development but have also played a crucial role in his approach to music. Join us as we discuss  "The Windrush Suite", a captivating trilogy in the making, and explore the impact of the Windrush generation on Caribbean families in the 60s. Plus, you'll hear about the unique collaboration between Renell and his wife, as they blend bass and tap dancing in a mesmerizing performance.

As we delve deeper into Renell's creative world, we also discuss the potential of combining music and animation, and the joy of playing music with other musicians. Renell shares his favorite inspirational quote from Einstein and the best piece of advice he's ever received. So grab your headphones and get ready for an insightful and inspiring journey with the remarkable Renell Shaw!

Renell Shaw is a nature lover as well as an extraordinary musician, who has found a way to live his life in balance and in harmony, on a daily basis. He starts each day with a meditative walk and allows the music to reveal itself to him. In earlier days, Renell used to strive to make things happen. Today he trusts in the process that he has developed. It works for him! His grandfather was a trumpet player, who was inspired by Louis Armstrong and Dizzy Gillespie. His godfather was an expert in martial arts. His father was a sound engineer. His mother gave him his first Carlos Santana record as a teenager, which inspired Renell  to learn to play the guitar, while she continues to provide him with lifelong encouragement. Renell won the Ivor Novello award for his work on the Windrush Suite, which was commissioned before pandemic restrictions  changed everybody’s lives. So far Renell has written the first two of a Windrush trilogy - a Griot yet to be completed At the time of this conversation, he is waiting for the music to reveal itself to him. Given his Caribbean family of origin, Renell starts from the enviable position of wanting to express the Windrush story from the inside out rather than the outside in. Quincy Jones provides Renell Shaw with his ideal role model for a multitalented musical career. Collaboration and community are concepts that appeal to Renell, who has his fav

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Chris Grimes:

Welcome to another episode of The Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, chris Grimes, the storytelling show that features the clearing, where all good questions come to get asked and all good stories come to be told, and where all my guests have two things in common they're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors a clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare and a cake. So it's all to play for. So, yes, welcome to The Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, chris Grimes. Are you sitting comfortably here? Then we shall begin. Oh, yes, indeed, as always, i give my little head a count of four to avoid me editing this later. Welcome, welcome, thrice.

Chris Grimes:

Welcome to an extremely talented multi-instrumentalist, super talented pants, that is, mr Ronell Shaw, who is an Ivor Novello award-winning composer, songwriter and music producer. Welcome, ronell, lovely to meet you, thank you for having me And just to position and blow a bit of happy smoke at you, you were passed the golden baton to be here by the lovely Dan Tsu, who's been a previous illustrious guest of mine, and, of course, dan Tsu is an award-winning curator of well, it's lyrics organics and also the Ronell Shack Blaston venue as well, and he was really intrigued to pass the baton on to you because he was really well, he really wanted to hear your story, and part of your story is the Ivor Novello award-winning prize that you got for the Windrush Suite, which we'll obviously talk more about. But anyway, welcome. How's Maral? what's your story of the day, kynes?

Renell Shaw:

How's Maral? what's my story of the day? Oh gosh. Well, i'm here, i'm happy, i'm making music, i'm writing, i had a great walk this morning, so I'm very much in my headspace of what is. I guess what story is going to uncover for me for the day is how I kind of think about it.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely, so is it a daily walk in a routine where you clear your head and get stuck into the rhythm of the day through a walk.

Renell Shaw:

Absolutely. I kind of prepare myself with the, i guess, the tools, which is, hey, i woke up today, that's a healthy start for me. And then I have things I have to do throughout the day, like admin staff conversations, bits and pieces, but before that even steps into my psyche, it's just taking a walk and just being present. I guess, yes, that's really evaluating just the day to day things like I have a park, that's local, that I can spend some time in, i have friends who I can communicate with, i have good relationships and for me those things are what allow the music and the art to express itself as authentically as I like it to.

Chris Grimes:

So I know that the Windrush Suite is going to be a trilogy, so my question to you is have you finished the third piece yet, which I think is it's griot, which is a new word that I've learned by researching you. Have I pronounced that correctly?

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, griot, griot. The T is silent. Some people might say differently, but the third piece I haven't begun. it's so strange. I've tried a few times and again I think the music reveals itself to me rather than me saying this is what the music is going to be. So with the Windrush Suite, i wrote that in 2020, and I wrote that without it having the impact on the gravitas that it had. It was just a piece of music, yes, and then I guess the response people had to it gave it more public weight. I would say more so because the music is still. It still feels the same to me. But then I wrote the second piece, echo with the Bones. And then, when I tried to find a space for the third one beyond the title griot it didn't feel right, so I just stuck and I just said similar to my walks, the musical revealed itself to me at the right time, so I will make space for that to happen rather than try and force the hand.

Chris Grimes:

I love the fact that it's going to be emergent. It will emerge when it emerges when the time is right, which is a lovely insight into your process as a composer and a musician, actually.

Renell Shaw:

Yes, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, i wouldn't say I've been like that all my life. I've definitely tried to make things happen, especially the younger, my younger self. Yes, but I've learned that life just doesn't work that way. Yes, so you have to find a healthy balance of knowing when to expect more of yourself and when to recognize that expectations could be causing unnecessary suffering because you believe it should be this way and you can't even see what's trying to offer itself to you. So, yeah, it's definitely a way of thinking and being that has amplified itself over the last two and a half years, and I'm happy with it. I'm happy with it because the work is coming, the creative evolution is consistent, and all I have to do is get up and start my day with a walk and I guess the rest.

Chris Grimes:

So yeah, So, by the way, that's a lovely full circle to what we've just been discussing. There you are back in your walk, which clears your head and gets you ready to come into the clearing, which is where I've. It's my great joy and delight to invite you here today. You do some extraordinary collaborations musically and you're also a multi-instrumentalist, so just talk us through the instruments you play, wow.

Renell Shaw:

Okay, so the first instrument I ever played was a trumpet. My granddad was a trumpet player and big fan of Louis Armstrong and Dizzy Gillespie specifically, so it was the horn. I wasn't a fan of it because I just wasn't a fan of practicing as a seven or eight year old. I just wanted to play it.

Speaker 4:

Yes.

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, it was a rudiment. This was not a thing for me, so I didn't really get into musical till. I was about 13 and I picked up the guitar. My mom bought me a Carlos Santana CD. Oh gosh, this is what I want to do. I want to play guitar, i want to be like this person, and I'm also listening to the Fuji's. Wyclef Sean was a big influence on my playing as a guitarist because he was rapping and using live instrumentation in hip hop and I hadn't heard that before. So those two really made me gravitate towards playing guitar And just say what?

Chris Grimes:

a cool first album to be given the Carlos Santana one. How fantastic.

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, yeah. And I was very influential on not just how I saw guitar, but how I saw collaboration, because the first antenna album I actually heard was Supernatural, which has a plethora of amazing artists on it, lauren Hill being one of them, who I'm a big fan of. And that was when I realized this is how I want to do things. I want to collaborate with other creatives to not only see the best of myself, but allow them to see the best of them. Yes, and I'm like this is me and this is how I want it. This is what I can do, but what you bring offers a perspective that allows me to look at art from a different angle in space.

Renell Shaw:

And that collaboration continued and I met really I made really good friends with musicians I worked with and most of them were better guitarists than me, so I became a bass player, and I'm sorry. And then what I really recognized was I resonated more with playing bass than any other instrument, and I think that stems from Caribbean heritage and sound system culture, and my dad was a sound engineer, so he was around in the times of jungle drum and bass, you know, when they were really young and really early. My mom was around when the whole funky, dread and salt assault thing was happening. She's also a big roots and reggae band, so sound system and bass is such a balloon to those genres. So when I started playing bass it was like it was like I found my Excalibur. I'm like this is my sword and this is who I am And I just kept moving forward. Eventually picked up some piano when I got into composing, played a bit of flute, a bit of cello, but bass is my nucleus and everything stems from that.

Chris Grimes:

Oh, can I just congratulate you for the beauty of. I found my Excalibur I like you Awesome. Your mother also speaks and forgive my pronunciation. Is it back? and all which is the.

Renell Shaw:

No, so back and now is it's another word for, like carnival, celebration is a type of celebration. So my mom was born here, first generation black British of Jamaican heritage, and back and now is is a type of festival or celebration. The word is using the Caribbean, so whether it's Patwa or Caribbean pigeon, however you want to call the articulation of the language, that word represents that kind of style of of our dance and jump up and just kind of really been able to let loose and be free.

Chris Grimes:

And of course, the whole Windrush suite is celebrating the heritage of the pioneering voices of Windrush and going back to your own heritage. Of course that began 1948 when West Indians were arriving in the UK, and there was a really lovely quote where you said if I start a conversation with my grandparents, they'll finish it because they love to tell their stories.

Renell Shaw:

Oh yeah, And the wind rush was such an.

Chris Grimes:

I mean it's a. I listen, i watch the video, the vision they had and it's just beautiful. So I congratulate you And I mean how did it come about that you got the? I have a novello, because presumably you didn't write it knowing that I'm going to put this forward for an award. It's just an amazing accolade.

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, i mean, originally the Windrush suite was supposed to be a commission for live performance, so I was commissioned, i think, about a month or two before lockdown happened, and then, when it did, it was basically myself, kathy Ann, who runs a lot of the Kathy, and Hingwan, who runs a lot of the events at the vortex jazz club in Dawson. We discussed how can we do this And I said I'd love to do online and turn it into a body of work. So I was just writing music. I was writing music that reflected the stories that I knew, because the windrush generation and their stories on an external observation of a culture that I don't know, their regular conversations in the house at dinnertime or Christmas that are.

Renell Shaw:

So I wanted to offer that perspective from the inside out rather than from the outside in, and I guess from there onwards, you know, i believe, when it comes to art, that people resonate with truth. So whatever they felt was authentic within the work, i guess the judges felt like this is a piece that you know is authentic in its space And I would one from the jazz category of the Ivers. I feel like it's been placed in there because the freedoms that jazz offer are more open to perspective, even though they're less in the structure and form. But for me I don't even call it a jazz piece. I kind of just call my music sonic anthropological studies, if I was going to be congenial about that. But it's just music really.

Chris Grimes:

By the way, i love your eloquence about how you describe your craft. It's beautiful, it really is fantastic. You've come up with so many lyrical expressions as we've been speaking, which is a bit jazzy of itself, and I congratulate you for that. So, if I may, then let's bring you in. It's my great delight to have you in this curated structure of the good listening to show stories of distinction and genius, and I'm going to welcome you to a clearing. We're going to shake a tree to see which storytelling apples fall out. There's going to be a couple of random squirrels, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare, a golden baton and a cake, and it's all to play for. So let's get you on the open road of this structure now. So thank you for also saying that you've brought some music along, which we'll talk about in a while too. So let's get there. What is? where is a clearing for you? Renell Shaw, ivan Avella, award-winning instrumentalist, musician, composer, super talented pants Where do you go to get clutter free and inspirational? Where is your clearing?

Renell Shaw:

Any space is quiet if I'm honest, any space with his nature. So, to be specific, i live in East London. Epping Forest is pretty much my back garden, which is a really beautiful space to just go and sit and think and allow ideas to form. I always have my phone with me, more so to write notes than to be doing anything else, and that is my clearing space. It has been those kind of spaces have been since I was a child. When I was much younger, i lived in North London near Alexander Palace, which is another similar open green space, so I would say that my clearing is definitely open green spaces Beautiful.

Chris Grimes:

Now, if I may, I'm going to arrive with a tree in your clearing to shake your tree to see which storytelling apples fall out. So this is where you've been kind enough to have thought about your responses to the exercise 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, where it's where you've had five minutes, or as long as you've needed before we chat, to have thought about four things that have shaped you, three things that inspire you, two things that never fail to grab your attention. That's where the squirrels come in Oh, squirrels. And then a quirky or unusual fact about you And there could be squirrels in Epping Forest. I get that. And then the one or quirky or unusual fact about you we couldn't possibly know until you tell us. So over to you to interpret the shaking of your canopy as you see fit.

Renell Shaw:

OK, i'll do my best to remember the order. So four things that have shaped me. Theatre has been a massive part of shaping me. I, from about 13, 14 years old, i grew up doing the education programs at the Hackney Empire And what that done for me was it opened up my idea of the narrative arc beyond just being a song. It showed me how songs can amplify drama scenes or how songs can collaborate with movement and dance, and it really made me look at the idea of the importance of narrative structure within music. That really helped shape me as I became a well-known songwriter and composer. It helped me look for the narrative within whoever, whatever project I was working on or whatever artist I was in the studio with.

Renell Shaw:

So theatre plays a big part, i would say. Martial arts is something else that has shaped me. My godfather is a martial arts teacher And I've been studying with him since I was about eight, nine years old, and what I love about that is it taught me to rely on myself and how to find how to form and shape the best version of myself at the time. Until I can create a better version, which is what I do with my music is I do the best I can with what I know, and this is me kind of paraphrasing my Andrew, and when I know better, i do better. So I have heavily been shaped by that.

Chris Grimes:

What is the martial art that he teaches and that you do?

Renell Shaw:

So my uncle teaches Wing Chun, which is a form of boxing, so Tai Chi. So what I'm fortunate to have is both the hard and soft styles of martial arts, which I feel like allows me to acquire a space of balance, and that's really shaped me. That's really shaped how I think about music, how I think about the people I'm working with and what space I need to occupy to allow the art to present the best version of itself.

Chris Grimes:

There's a fluency in flow which is implicit in what you're saying. So fluency flow physically and musically makes real sense in what you're disclosing here.

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, precisely Because one thing martial arts teaches you very quickly is if you don't adjust, then you will get punched in the mouth. So you can take that literally or metaphorically.

Chris Grimes:

It's a great life philosophy Adjust or you'll get punched in the mouth. I love that.

Renell Shaw:

Pretty much So. I've learned how to block a punch or just move out of the way, And that's how I feel when I'm in the studio A lot of the time is there can be a lot of energies and a lot of creative ideas or even egos in the room. So what I ask myself is what's needed? I may be able to do all of these things, but do I need to offer all of it? If the songwriter has great lyrics, work on melodies. If they have great melodies, help write form instruction for lyrics And martial arts has really helped shape that, because you are consistently adjusting.

Renell Shaw:

No matter how much you think you know, everyone has an idea until they get punched in the mouth, as Mike Tyson says. So we learned very quickly how to be present. I think that's what martial arts helps shape. Additionally to that, my mentors. I've been very fortunate to have professionals who are, who are further down the path of you know a similar path that I'd be stepping on who can help, who have helped me see what I could potentially become. So my mentor, Orphie Robinson, Cleveland Watkiss these are like prolific jazz musicians and composers. Susan McKenna is a great director. I've seen their lives and been able to ask people questions who are living what I wish to live, And I think tuition is so important, Whether that's in the institutions or through apprenticeships or however you acquire that. I think as humans, we should offer knowledge, but we should also we should also offer knowledge that can be applied, so that the individual can find their own making of that golden nugget that's given.

Chris Grimes:

There's a delightful humility in what you're describing as well, and the desire to play it forward and never be smug or self-satisfied. Always be open and receptive to new learning.

Renell Shaw:

Absolutely, because there's always somebody, either better or different or curious or inspired by what you're doing or trying to do. So it's knowing that what I'm doing is good enough for who I am right now, but it can always be better. But not to be caught up in the spiral of only seeking better, like betterness, whatever you had, for the sake of just consuming It's like. Well, what am I trying to do with this?

Chris Grimes:

The goal is not material possession. It's more about a sense of presence and being.

Renell Shaw:

Absolutely, it's self-actualization. I think I look at it as self-actualization. It's seeing myself from my own art and going, oh, i thought it was this, but it's that, okay, cool, what next? So, yeah, mentorship, martial arts, oh, a theatre. And my fourth thing is definitely who that shaped me is. I'd say it has to be my mum, specifically my mum, because my mum has seen everything that I've become, long before I became it, even when I was saying no, no, no, it should be this, it should be that. And then, 10 years later, i've come around to what she was saying I should have done ages ago, but she never discouraged the path I took to get to where I needed to, And actually, just knowing that someone loves you so much to trust how do I say it?

Renell Shaw:

to trust in your own method? that has been such a revelation for me that all that I've got is that my mum could have said no, you're doing this and you're doing it that way, and enough is enough. But she would always be like, well, no, give it a go see what happens. Or again, as my granddad would say, and my mum as, long as you have a plan.

Renell Shaw:

I don't mind, and I think those tools have really helped shape how I choose to have my career go forward rather than like I am. I am within the constructs of how the industry should work or art should work, and it's allowed me to have a commercial music career and a strong theater career in parallels, rather than just one or the other. And my mum has helped with that because she has believed in me long before I believed in myself, and it's only as I began to believe in myself that I recognized. I know this emotion, but it was because it was already given to me from my mum. So those are my four, definitely.

Chris Grimes:

That's the most beautiful testimony to your mother And, if you don't mind me asking, you've spoken about your father in the past tense. is he still with us as well?

Renell Shaw:

Yes, my father is. I say in the past tense because he lives in the Caribbean now. Ah, yes yes, yes, sure, sure, Yeah. So I don't see him as regularly as I used to, but we talk every day. we message him WhatsApp. He sends me songs, i send him songs. He's a big fan of music And he's very aware of everything I'm doing. If I'm on stage touring, sometimes I get the phone out. Send him a thing. Look that in. We go again. 80,000 people, oh how wonderful.

Chris Grimes:

You have had some extraordinary collaborations. I mean you know I'll name drop for you. But people like Niall Rogers, Jess, Glyn Skepta, Carly and Anderson, and, and, and, and, and and. There's just some really wonderful sort of sumptuous collaborations that you've been involved in. And because of your flow state, I completely get why people would be drawn to the sense of somebody who's in flow. It's a very attractive proposition to be so in flow that people think I can. I can fly alongside.

Renell Shaw:

I think it's just about. For me it's just about encouraging people to be their best selves as well. So I never know. I try my best to not have expectation. I mean, we all have some expectation, you know, or else we just walk out into the road and assume you wouldn't be hit by cars. But collaboration is, has has. They've come from spaces where I've been able to just be myself in, and I guess others have to. So even like some of the names you mentioned, like now, rogers was an Abbey Road studio with an Abbey Road session of rudimental And I was fortunate to be in the room at the right time and see one of my heroes, the skeptic collaboration was actually a part of an education project that he was doing with Levi's And I was like this is insane.

Renell Shaw:

I love this guy And here we are working on, here I am working with him on a project that's actually going to shape the next generation of artists to come. You know Jess Glyn. I didn't even know Jess Glyn wasn't the Jess Glyn we know. Now, when I was working on some of the records playing bass, it was just a session to me And then it's like Oh, i know that song. Why do I know that song, oh, i played on it. While I'm hearing on the radio I thought, oh, that's, that's that one, okay, cool. So again, it is that free flow state that has allowed me to.

Chris Grimes:

I love Jess Glyn's voice, so that was really resonant for me when I read of all the names, and, and that one was fantastic too, and we're into three things that inspire you. Now. If there's any overlap, don't worry, because you're. You're giving me inspiration by the bucket load anyway, but what about three things that inspire you right now?

Renell Shaw:

three things that inspire me. First thing is a person which is Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones is easily my single most biggest inspiration, equally I say easily, but also equally to my mentor Wolfie Robinson, who for me, is our UK's Quincy Jones. But what, quincy is done in a day, most people don't do in a lifetime. That's a regular quote. And what that really showed me was the ability of the human creative like you can do more than you think you can. And I think my schooling made me believe one thing. But then discovering this composer, producer, musician who had done so much, it made me believe Well, why can't I do that too? And my introduction to Quincy Jones wasn't even through music, it was through his autobiography. My mom was always taking my sister and I to a bookshop in Green every weekend And the rule was you can buy one book and your hot chocolate and your cookie and we sit here for three hours and you read and you have your thing.

Renell Shaw:

And I just remember seeing this book of a just a black guy on the front in a really dapper looking waistcoat and red shirt And I was like I want to be like him, i want that book. No idea who he was. And then I started reading this life of this man who had done things I didn't know were possible. So that inspired me to be to stay limitless, i think, is how I would put it. Yeah, quincy Jones definitely.

Chris Grimes:

Have you met him in your career? so far, i have.

Renell Shaw:

I haven't met him on a one to one space but I have. I went to a talk at the Royal School of Music, royal Academy of Music, i think it is where he was doing a one hour talk and then there was a one hour live performance of his work And I was sitting about 20 meters from him And I think it's the only time in my life that I've seen someone of celebrity status And I was too scared to go out and talk to them. I just kind of stayed from a distance like a non stalky stalker. But it was like a bucket list. I was like Quincy Jones seen the man, heard him speak, heard his work, happy with that. So yeah.

Renell Shaw:

Quincy big inspiration. alongside that, i think just playing music, i find, is an inspiration in itself, like I've learned that it's so easy to seek externally for things, when sometimes being alone and just sitting with just a guitar or just around a piano inspires like a wealth of ideas that have been like a collection of data throughout the day or the weeks that I didn't even know was in my psyche. So sometimes just sitting by myself to play and see what kind of unfolds, that is a big inspirational tool for me. I don't get to use it as much as I like to at the moment, but that's because I have a lot of commissions and things going on. So there are very clear directions.

Renell Shaw:

but I find my best work, the work that I'm most emotionally connected to, has come through being able to sit by myself with an instrument, as it was when I was 13, picking up a guitar and just trying to play a Carlos and Carlos and Tana treat really badly And shout downstairs well done. but that has always been inspiring to me, hearing the sound start to sound like something in my head, and I think that is because when it keeps reinforcing is that there are really cool ideas in here. you just got to figure them out and sit with them for a minute and they will unfold. but that is the process and being okay with not knowing what will unfold, and I've learned to be inspired by that.

Chris Grimes:

So I've sometimes heard it couched us of finding your inner genius or listening to your inner genius, the version of you that's totally in flow and knows exactly what to do and where to search precisely that I totally believe in that.

Renell Shaw:

I believe that we all have forms of genius and you have to figure out what is your genius respond to, and it seems that mine is solitude. You know, it's just like chilling by myself with an instrument of some sort. I always go to the guitar or the piano, but sometimes it's the bass, sometimes it's just something that can create something. Yes, yeah, solitude and creative instruments inspire me.

Chris Grimes:

You mentioned Depping Forest as being the metaphorical or literal clearing, but I don't imagine you as being a wandering minstrel with a guitar through the trees. That's definitely not me.

Renell Shaw:

I'm not even close. I like to be in spaces where I can kind of lock off away. So now my studio, i can just sit in here, the curtains close, the lava lamp goes on and, yeah, i can just work. So I love that. So the third source of inspiration I would say oh, fun enough is the opposite is conversation. I really enjoy good conversation with other other individuals who just have unique perspectives. I think there's that you will never know everything while you're like as you go through this world. But if you choose, if you choose your books and choose your people wisely, you can have a really interesting perspective of the world. And I think I love reading. So I think my kind of insatiable yearning for more knowledge like spills out over the books into conversations with people.

Chris Grimes:

I love how sorry to interrupt you, how that's so rooted in your mother's daily quest, sorry weekly quest to take you to the bookshop, the three of you. Yeah, do you know what?

Renell Shaw:

I never connected the dots but, yeah, reading was never a chore, it was always a luxury. So that continues. And I guess when I read books I hear the ideas of people who I've never met and I'm taken to worlds that I've never been to or countries I've never been to. So then when I meet people who I find are fascinating, i just love speaking with them, and sometimes that forms into music. Most of the times that forms into great relationships, which for me is so important because we are social creatures and I'm and I make art. I make it not just for myself but for others to interpret and respond to in whatever way works best for them. So conversation is so important for me.

Chris Grimes:

And listening out, as we've gone through, by the way, about where to naturally segue in a piece of music. So, with your permission, round about here. What's the piece of music that you'd like to introduce to the clearing?

Renell Shaw:

That's an interesting one. I was thinking there's a piece from the Windrush Suite And I love a piece from Echo in the Bones, the second suite called This Mind Knows. And I love that piece because it's a mixture of poetry and there's not much singing in it, but the musicians get to take solos and we're playing in an odd time signature Instead of just a standard four beats per bar kind of thing. We're playing in 11, 8, which my thing is. I love odd things sound in natural And I like to look at myself as an odd thing. So you know, i'm always searching for the naturalisms within it all. But this mind knows from Echo in the Bones.

Speaker 1:

This body carries love. This body carries pain.

Speaker 5:

These eyes see the future.

Speaker 1:

This blood knows the past.

Renell Shaw:

This hair knows pride.

Speaker 4:

These hands know work.

Speaker 1:

This skin knows heat, these feet know roads.

Renell Shaw:

This voice is loud.

Speaker 4:

This chest is proud.

Speaker 1:

These shoulders know weight.

Chris Grimes:

This mind knows.

Speaker 1:

This body carries love. This body carries pain. This body carries love. This body carries pain. This body carries love. This body carries pain. This body carries love. This body carries pain. This body carries love. This body carries pain. This body carries love. This body carries pain.

Chris Grimes:

To be continued, to be continued, to be continued, to be continued, to be continued, to be continued, to be continued, to be continued. I'm so sorry to cut it off there, but now I think we're at two things that never fail to grab your attention, which is more squirrels in a which could be bouncing about in Epping Forest, but what are the two monsters of distraction, things that your two squirrels that never fell to distract you?

Renell Shaw:

YouTube, youtube. I just again because the things I can find on there. I could start like, oh my gosh, what was I looking at this morning? I started reading about I've been reading about a key guy which is actually have the right here, the Japanese secrets or long and happy life, and I was like, oh, i'm reading about a key guy which is actually a book that I've been reading about for a long time.

Renell Shaw:

And I was like oh, i'm reading about a key guy which is actually a book that I've been reading about for a long time And I was like, oh, I'm reading about a key guy which is actually a book, because I'm growing So I was doing some YouTube stuff on that And then I ended up reading about, and then I ended up listening to non Chomsky talking about the school system.

Chris Grimes:

Whoa, you're going down a much healthier rabbit hole of YouTube than most people. I'd say. That was that. That's pretty impressive to go from icky guy to Chomsky, go you.

Renell Shaw:

I mean, it's not me, it's the algorithms.

Chris Grimes:

I'm like I don't know, let's see Well most of us go to Planet Wibble as in. What the heck am I looking at that for? That's great.

Renell Shaw:

That is a big distraction to me.

Renell Shaw:

A good one, i guess. Well, i do. I do find that I can lift my head up after looking at my phone or my laptop and it's nighttime And I have all of these things that I want to talk to people about, but I need to go to sleep and my wife doesn't want to hear it, so because she's always having to hear it, so that can be a bit of a distraction. It's a. It's a great thing to have, but I think one thing that is important to me is balance. Yes, i think I could spend a little less time down the rabbit holes of knowledge and actually a little more time applying the knowledge.

Chris Grimes:

And I know, by the way, that the Windrush was also a dream collaboration, because your wife supplied you the dancers for the vision they had. I'm not saying she supplied them, but she, she reached out. She's not a dancer supplier.

Renell Shaw:

My wife is a theater performer and choreographer. They're all friends that she knows from like the theater industry. She also sang, played percussion and danced on the Windrush Suite as a tap dancer. So the last piece is myself playing bass and my drummer on cymbals and then my wife tap dancing through it Always something I've wanted to do.

Chris Grimes:

So is that another piece of music we could have as well?

Renell Shaw:

Oh, absolutely. And what's that one called? I should really know the names to my songs I can't remember. is the fourth suite? It's. what did I call it? It's not called. I think it's called purgatory, yeah purgatory.

Chris Grimes:

It sounds anything but purgatory. The idea of you living the dream of playing bass while your wife tap dances That's fantastic.

Renell Shaw:

Well, i guess the, the creation, is absolutely how I love it. The concept And I think the context of the piece is more purgatory based. It's a beautiful piece And again, yeah, that is a that would be a great piece to play, because it is a true reflection of how I see art and music is why can't you have a dancer on your records? And you know, and taking care of the most important part of the music for me as a bass player, which is the rhythm. So that was a great opportunity for myself and her to to compensate artistically on a record.

Chris Grimes:

And you just made me think of Tiny Dancer by Elton John. He's not been on my show yet. We'll find a way.

Speaker 4:

It was very, very hard in the sixties for black families, who were then primarily Caribbean, to get anywhere to live And they ended up in the worst accommodation and the most expensive accommodation. Back in those days there perhaps wasn't enough infrastructure in the community to to have organized childminders, so they'd end up leaving their children in white childminders and then take the child at the end of the day and find the baby's nappy hadn't been changed all day, the child hadn't been fed properly all day or, even worse, the child had been abused. So a number of parents actually took to sending their children back home to the Caribbean and asked what my parents did. The arbor had raised me in Barbados' future.

Speaker 4:

I was a bright child. She raised me with extracuritia at home And I had a kind of glowing reference from the head teacher at my school in Barbados. But the first thing they did when I got to school in England, despite what I came here, was to put me in what was colloquially known back then as the Dunces class. But it was all about that, you know, making that immediate assumption Black person from black country well, gotta be below our standards.

Chris Grimes:

So was that your two squirrels of distraction? It's YouTube and then we put some music in, or was there a second squirrel?

Renell Shaw:

Oh. The second squirrel I would definitely say is oh, i think sometimes I just get in my own way. If I'm really honest, i can be my own distraction because it's very easy to create an idea of the world separately from the reality or the truth of the world. So the walks, like I said, meditation, martial arts, doing things like that kind of helped me get out of my own way. But I would say YouTube and myself are definitely my two biggest distraction.

Chris Grimes:

You're your own worst squirrel. I like that me too. And now a quirky or unusual fact about you. We couldn't possibly know until you tell us, rinal.

Renell Shaw:

I did not want to do music as a profession. I wanted to be a comic book illustrator. Wow, that was my thing. I love. I love drawing, i love comic books. I love how they amplify the imagination And if I didn't get that car or Santana CD, i would definitely be in a studio somewhere, like making a comic or even maybe, as the world has progressed, doing more CGI based things. But I love that the idea of comic books makes visualisation limitless, you know, because as much as film can do what it does, it can only go so far, depending on budget, whereas with drawing and art it's only limited by the imagination. So I would have definitely been a comic book illustrator.

Chris Grimes:

And because of combining both worlds. I'm not saying any of your work is like this, but it's made me think of loony tunes, as in quirkiness. That's where the worlds of music and animation can happily collide or collaborate.

Renell Shaw:

Yes, i'm a very visual person. So even though I'm not a comic book illustrator and I'd probably be a terrible one now because I haven't drawn for so long My music is very visual. Everything I write I can see, and when I offer it to an audience, it's for their experience to be able to take a sonic space and create a visual one for themselves.

Chris Grimes:

Beautiful. We've shaken your tree, Hurrah. Now we stay in the clearing, move away from the tree And next we talk about alchemy and gold In your at purpose and in flow, Reneal. What are you absolutely happiest doing?

Renell Shaw:

At purpose and in flow. I am happiest Ooh, that's such an interesting one, i think. I think just playing music with other musicians because there is a mutual understanding when we all kind of harmonize on a similar kind of frequency or flow. That feels so I'm trying to find the right words so much bigger than just the music. I feel like not using words opens up space for so much more truth. in language, i feel like sometimes the truth is hidden from words. So when in a space of flow and able to play with other musicians and able to express myself artistically in that way, sometimes what is revealed to me is as elating as maybe those who are listening or a part of that kind of sonic space being created. So I am happiest to play music with other people who enjoy playing music.

Renell Shaw:

I really am and actually, alongside that, sparring martial arts Like I really enjoy when my uncle and I would train and go through some of the Winchens Dickie Hands we call Chisau, but also the Tai Chi sparring because I'm able to see the best of myself in that moment. And that's always nice because there's no assumptions whether I'm this good or that good. It's here I am right now and here's what's being said and oh my gosh, this is who I am, even if it's just for a moment. It's nice to kind of have an understanding of yourself for a fraction of time, and the hard thing is to not then spend the rest of your life trying to pursue that moment. It's to be okay with moment of flow and able to go. That was a great session with those musicians, or that was a great sparring session.

Renell Shaw:

And man, I'm glad I'm able to do that and be okay with that being a moment, So it does really Beautifully eloquent answer, the true jazz state in all its forms.

Chris Grimes:

It's very relatable. I'm in comedy improvisation quite a lot and there are moments that are just utterly unique and sublime, never to be repeated, but they're perfect.

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, yeah, you know that flow. It's like it's you know you said something and the audience really get where your head's at and it just opens up all of these other things that you now know you can use, whether it be, yeah, comedy or music or martial arts, And I think those are the best moments. I think I've learned that piece is a process and the process is being present, you know. So, yeah, I really respect those moments And I think respect is the right word because it stops me trying to repeat them. I think that's when it goes from joy to like a desire, and then it becomes more consumerist rather than trusting yourself.

Chris Grimes:

Beautifully put. I'm just allowing a bit of happy silence there, and now I'm going to award you with a cake, so you get to put a cherry on the cake. And this is the last multi-layered storytelling escape of what's a favorite inspirational quote. You mentioned Maya Angelou. It doesn't have to be her, but it could be. So what's a favorite inspirational quote that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future?

Renell Shaw:

Oh, that's easy. I got it tattooed on my arm. It's Einstein and he says we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we use to create them.

Speaker 4:

So fantastic.

Chris Grimes:

I love the fact it's tattooed on your arm as well. Not everyone has Einstein tattooed on their arm. That's fantastic. Just say the quote one more time. Just let it hang there. It's beautiful.

Renell Shaw:

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we use to create them.

Chris Grimes:

So said Reneal Shaw and Einstein slightly before then. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given, Reneal?

Renell Shaw:

You will come into your own when you get to your 30s, and that was said to me by a phenomenal singer and musical theater performer, sharon D Clarke. I was 21 and I told her that it's all over, my life is pretty much done, it's too late, i'm too old to do music. And she just took me aside and said darling, you won't come into your own until you reach your 30s. Take time, enjoy the ride. And, lo and behold, i got to my 30s and it made a little bit more sense, but I did come into my own, and that was the main thing that I really took from that.

Chris Grimes:

And I tell others that now, so yeah, Beautiful advice. And the final question now we're ramping up to a bit of Shakespeare, but just before we get there and that's going to be about legacy and how you'd most like to be remembered. but this is now the past the golden baton moment, please. So who in your network do you think would most appreciate being given a damn good listening to in this way?

Renell Shaw:

My good friend, stella, stella Tellodorus. She is an amazing human being Again, someone who I have great conversations with. She opened up a coffee shop in East London, wolvenstowe, called Winwood about eight years ago And her thing with her family is community, which is so important. I think we forget the importance of that in this world That is becoming a little bit more isolated, but she really advocates for community and putting on events and creating spaces where people can feel heard and seen. She also has another building now called 12 House which is like a spiritual and holistic health space.

Renell Shaw:

She, i think she studied psychology or anthropology and stuff And she's a very interested mind And I love speaking with people who firstly think, because thinking is important but also offer perspectives that challenge my own and that I can have a really great space of call it intellectual sparring with. I know at the moment she's into studying psychology again, i think and counseling And she's a real people's person but she does it. She inspired me to really get into doing the business side of music more than just kind of talking about it. So she knows how to start up companies and businesses and gets ideas going and works with the council and does things independently, starts up magazines. She's just everywhere. She's a bit of a polymath And I'm really, you're ubiquitous as they say.

Renell Shaw:

I respect her decisions to move forward and just do it rather than talk about it, so that's what I love about her, and I think she'd be great for this.

Chris Grimes:

And just give me her name one more time Stella, stella, taliodorus Taliodorus, what a great name. And your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to furnish me with a warm introduction. She's already said yes, apparently. You've said So. That's all wonderful. I forgot to ask you what notes, help or advice might you offer to a younger version of yourself?

Renell Shaw:

I would say be kind to yourself. I was very hard on myself when I was younger, really trying to make it work and make it happen. I would say be kind to yourself, practice regularly and trust your instincts.

Chris Grimes:

And now inspired by Shakespeare, and this, by the way, is a real, beautiful, authentic. I went to drama school in circa 1986 to 88. And this was the actual book of the complete works of Shakespeare. So it's just a nice comedy prop that I put into the theatre show now, so inspired by all the world's stage and all the men and women merely players. this is about legacy. How and all is said and done, reneal Shaw, would you most like to be remembered?

Renell Shaw:

By reflecting the culture. at the time, i think I'd prefer my work to be remembered, more so than myself, because I'm just a vessel translating what I've been taught. So I would like to be remembered, if remembered at all, for reflecting the culture, and hopefully that inspires people to do it even better.

Chris Grimes:

Beautiful, as this has been your moment in the sunshine, in fact, just before I get there. Sorry, that was a really good question, well crafted, but where can we find out more about you on the internet? Where do we go to look for Reneal Shaw in all things that you're up to?

Renell Shaw:

RenealShawcom, r-e-n-e-l-l-s-h-a-wcom. Everything's there. I have an Instagram. I kind of use it, but I just thought a website. It's easy to connect with me, to contact me, and my Instagram is the same name, so that's where you can find me.

Chris Grimes:

Lovely, and as this has been your moment in the sunshine in the Good Listening 2 show, stories of Distinction and Genius. Is there anything else, reneal Shaw, you'd like to say?

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, man, life is a wave. It's a lot of waves. So ride the wave, don't fly the wave.

Chris Grimes:

So, ladies and gentlemen, you've been listening to the glorious Reneal Shaw and thank you so much for being here in the Good Listening 2 show. Tune in next time for more stories from The Clearing. And good night. You've been listening to The Good Listening 2 show here on UK Health Radio with me, chris Grimes Oh, it's my son.

Chris Grimes:

If you've enjoyed the show, then please do tune in next week to listen to more stories from The Clearing. If you'd like to connect with me on LinkedIn, then please do so. There's also a dedicated Facebook group for the show too. You can contact me about the programme or, if you'd be interested in experiencing some personal impact coaching with me, carry my level up your impact programme. That's chrisatsecondcurveuk On Twitter and Instagram. It's At that, chris Grimes. So until next time for me, chris Grimes, from UK Health Radio, and from Stan To your good health And goodbye. So, reneal. You've just been given a Good Listening 2 in the Good Listening 2 show Stories of Distinction and Genius. Can I just ask you immediate feedback as to what that was like being given a listening to in this format?

Renell Shaw:

I loved it because it was creative. I loved that I was able to respond in a way that was very familiar to my environment of working, and I will definitely be taking a few nuggets from that and paving it forward into how I interact with other creatives. So thank you for that.

Chris Grimes:

You're very welcome And also thank you so much for agreeing to let me have some music. I feel it's such a gift. There is the opportunity, if you want, because of the rules of three, about all good communication happening in threes. Is there a third piece of music that you might also want to provide as well?

Renell Shaw:

Yeah, yes, there is. I think I'd like to provide a part of the vision they had, which is the piece that won the IFA, because it's got conversations with my grandparents on it. It's the piece that really shifted how the world of composition saw me, and I think it's pretty cool.

Chris Grimes:

So yeah, That's the vision they had And I would encourage everyone to look at that. There is a lovely YouTube film of that too, and that, indeed, is part of the suite that won you the IFA Novello Award. So here it comes to play this episode out. Finally, the vision they had, the composition by Reneal Shaw, the one jazz composition best ensemble for the IFA Novello Award. Here it comes.

Speaker 5:

Most people who came here during that time they had a plan because there was trouble before some of us, you know. But you see the people who've been here and back and you listen to what they're saying some rubbish and some half make sense, and you know, because people go on and on and on and you don't get to the root of the truth. So most people like myself. So I think I'll spend a couple of years and go back, you know. But the vision you had come here and spent a few years. You wanted to work to make some good money that we think was available in the workplace. But it was not. The wages were still puny and I think, from the general point of view, even today they work it out. Labour how much you get for an hour for a labourer, how much you get for a semi-skill, how much you get for a top-skill man? And that still exists today. And if you have a family, they got to eat.

Renell Shaw:

The money is coming out quicker than it's coming in. Oh yes, precisely So.

Speaker 5:

The history passes so quick that some of the things you don't even remember, the younger generation need to know this, because you have people taking the piss out of you. You think, more or less, you just come to beg, you know, to realise that you've been working, and you've been working for kittens really all the years, because you never get a top job, you never get a top job. You never get a top job. You never get a top job. You never get a top job. You never get a top job. You never get a top job. You never get a top job.

Speaker 5:

There was a lot of discrimination against people coming in this country. You know, no blacks, no dogs, some people, people had that sign on their door. It's a diplomatic tree now, but it's there. You see, the only time they might have a little change of mind or heart is if they themselves meet one of the opposite people who they're trying to discriminate against And they come up and fool themselves that they are as intelligent, if not more. Then it opened up a new chapter in your head, your head, your head, your head, your head, your head.

Speaker 1:

Granddad come up after You drive. No, we never met here. Young Granddad was friends from Apo. And then Granddad come up.

Renell Shaw:

So you follow me.

Speaker 1:

Yes, he follow me, He wouldn't stay out there not following me. Ha ha, ha, ha, ha ha ha. We never know what's in my local. When we say EA, in EE, right there, say my cop, he said what the hell? And then he come and after a while he has to call, and then we are here with the computer.

Speaker 1:

One woman, one time the kingdom. Here we are, one woman, one better as the. You have to do what you have to do to survive, and with this I did Houston, eris, eris come, and he, she never stop Great to come. Man, we were good friends up here, you know, we used to work together and so on. But she come away and she wanted to come and dance with him And she never stop writing.

Speaker 1:

And I said, oh, must come, must come Playing, or a boat, oh, playing man, boat. Ooh, we didn't travel for boats, sir. Me know, me know like the boat thing at all. Me know, me know like the wings, but But me prefer the flying. Nothing, no, i said nothing, water at all. Me know I travel, you know Me prefer the flying.

Speaker 1:

I was a suspect I could so. So I said that I just want them to put me around the machine and I can prove to them that I can do it. And I start going there and get a job, go on the machine and Get off the machine and start the app and give me a and me, just take off from the. They just put me on the machine, that's all I want. Just put me on the machine And that's all. They put me on the machine and give me a team and I just take off from the machine. You know, i've been shown that one time. They've shown me that I'm the guy.

Speaker 1:

I was an independent person. Oh, i'm a good. You think me coming out? ooh, for people. You tell me once you're caught to anger What you think. You think me. You think of people, somebody. They see me here and come here. I paint my face, come to anger. I go on secret job and get a job. I'm a good guy, i'm a good guy. I'm a good guy. I'm a good guy. I'm a good guy. When I go to work I sleep with them, i take care of them and stay here until I come home. I feel really good to work. I'm a good guy.

Speaker 5:

I'm a good guy. I'm a good guy. You've got to be diplomatic. A lot of people try to pump opinions. You play new guitar and you sound good And they want to chat. They see the conversation. They want to know what they want to find out about. you Know, you as a person. Everything coming at you you know. So you've got to be diplomatic. You only let go as much as you want to.

Renell Shaw:

Yes, i hear you, I'm a good guy.